SMS questions.

Rob85635 · April 22, 2007 3:00PM

I did a search and learned a lot about SMS's.

1. SMS coins were struck once at higher pressure and can be very proof like (obvious sms coin)
2. Regular Issue coins for those years with poor strikes are fairly easy to say are not sms coins (obvious business strike)
3. SMS / Business strike coins are out there that appear to be hard to distinguish (questionable sms/business strike)
4. PCGS has some secret way of identifying SMS from Business strike coins regardless of condition (based on what I was reading)
5. One way of identifying SMS Kennedys on good examples is the "birthmark on the obverse to the left and up of his ear.

My questions. Does anyone have a difinitive way of identifying SMS strikes? I recently got a roll of almost all 64-67 kennedy halves and a few of them look really nice, but I cannot tell if SMS and don't want to waste a submit to find it is not.

Can anyone add to the five facts listed to help me learn more? Or am I stuck?

I would think there would be few SMS coins in circulation but maybe I am wrong, ... it would be nice if I was able to identify it myself. I get the feeling this is a Russ question since I have seen some awesome sms kennedys from him but I am hoping others can enlighten me. I know I am a newb, but my thirst for knowledge is insatiable.

TomB · April 22, 2007 3:04PM

I'm not an expert on the SMS issues; but point four is incorrect.

pb2y · April 22, 2007 3:19PM

Prooflikes and cameos are the rare of SMS -- all others are of small concern

airedale · April 22, 2007 4:13PM

I enjoy SMS coins too. I saw somewhere what you say in point 4 but probably in reality PCGS does not have that secret method. My guess is that a really nice business strike would just be defaulted to a SMS coin at a much lower value. Probably even if a business strike had DMPL or PL characteristics it would be defaulted to a SMS. This unfortunately may just may remain a mystery.

Maybe the two principals of PCGS who are on this forum would chime in on this.

basestealer · April 22, 2007 5:56PM

I suggest you buy some special mint sets, buy a 64 proof set, and then get ahold of some business strikes and do a comparison. The SMS coins have a prooflike finish, and the best struck examples will look just like proofs (some with cameos). I find it hard to tell them apart if I just have one coin in hand, but with all 3 comparison pieces it's much easier.

lasvegasteddy · April 22, 2007 7:34PM

i love sms coins and merely offer this on your thought of to submit or not to submit.
review your prices as even on "sms cameo's" low grades can not be in best use of grading money.
you reference that you have halves in a roll...shoot some of the halves in preserved sms set's aren't even worth submitting so your chance of a half that's in a roll are extremely small that it would make sense to do so.
i would advise to buy some graded already to use as a grading reference set.
there's nothing like having in hand something to compare to

DHeath · April 22, 2007 8:54PM

David Hall said if the coin submitted had any mirroring in the fields, it would be considered SMS, and that SMS would be the default for submissions. That was a few years ago, but I've seen nothing since indicating otherwise.

DRG · April 22, 2007 9:34PM

PCGS is far from perfect on this issue.

Any really nice mint state coin will by default be slabbed as a SMS.

I was lucky enough to have a large group of regular strike coins re-slabbed by PCGS as MS coins after they were slabbed SMS the first time through.

This is in no way meant as a slam to PCGS. It is very tough to tell a nice MS coin from a SMS and it is better for PCGS to be conservative than liberal.

It is also true that some SMS sets coins were put into MS rolls.

It is also believed that SMS dies were used to strike MS coins after they were done with their useful life as SMS dies.

jmj3esq · April 22, 2007 10:50PM

I have heard that PCGS had a magical way of telling the difference. I dont beleive it. I have heard people say that they have pulled coins out of original rolls, clearly business strikes, yet PCGS slabed them in SMS slabs.

I once had a 1966 Kennedy in MS67 and a 1966 SMS in MS67. The coins looked virtualy identical. All except the price tag that is. A fellow forum meber now owns them both and is searching for a real answer.

Crap shoot.

Rob85635 · April 23, 2007 1:56AM

Thanks for the input everyone. I have one nice 66 that is the best of all of the ones I found in the two rolls. I am short a copystand so I will order one today on ebay. I need to get a ton of pics up for advice and for a few other reasons so I can no longer procrastinate, I need to get that copystand.

Looks like there is no way I can learn to tell the difference and based on lasvegasteddy's comments it would probably be a waste to even submit my best one.

Thanks again, you are all truly amazing.

jmj3esq · April 23, 2007 2:05AM

it would probably be a waste to even submit my best one

Thats kinda what I thought until I did it and got a 1966 MS67 back from PCGS. It was a very nice experience.

19Lyds · April 23, 2007 2:06AM

<< 5. One way of identifying SMS Kennedys on good examples is the "birthmark on the obverse to the left and up of his ear. >>

I don't know where you got this but this is not true. The Birthmark Kennedy, although an SMS coin, is not on all SMS coins. Otherwise Russ wouldn't toot his horn everytime he found one!

Edited to Add: Birthmark Kennedy's were only in 1967.

Rob85635 · April 23, 2007 2:10AM

<< I don't know where you got this but this is not true. The Birthmark Kennedy, although an SMS coin, is not on all SMS coins. Otherwise Russ wouldn't toot his horn everytime he found one! >>

I did not say it was on "all" nice SMS kennedys, or at least I did not mean to imply it. I got that information from a search of the forums. It is my understanding that the "birthmark" is just one way of identifying them. How rare it is is beyond me, I don't know enough about them. If it is a very rare trait, then I thank you for that information and will keep it in mind to buy any I see

Thanks 19Lyds

grabba · April 23, 2007 2:31AM

<< 

<< How rare it is is beyond me, I don't know enough about them.
>>

Very rare and very hard to find. I think Russ owns about 12-15 of them. 1967 is the only year the birthmark appears on Kennedy's head.

Here a couple of mine that I am sending in sometime in May. I don't have any birthmarks though.

Russ · April 23, 2007 2:32AM

<< How rare it is is beyond me, I don't know enough about them. >>

It is rather rare. My guess is that less than 200 exist, and that estimate might be generous.

<< I think Russ owns about 12-15 of them. >>

Currently 14.

Russ, NCNE

grabba · April 23, 2007 2:39AM

<< 

<< I think Russ owns about 12-15 of them. >>

Currently 14.

Russ, NCNE >>

See. I have been paying attention.

jmj3esq · April 23, 2007 2:57AM

Here is a picture of an 1966 that got slabed as an SMS. I truly think it is a regular business strike. These are the ones that cause the problems. The mirrored SMS arer easy to spot. This coin looks just like the one I got slabbed as a business strike MS67. There are no mirrored fields on this one. I sure wish someone could find a tell tale sign for an SMS coin. I think it would have happened by now if it were possible. If PCGS had a "secret" I think the cat would have been let out of the bag a long time ago, too.

SMS questions.

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