Teach me about Die Polish Lines

SilverEagles92 · April 21, 2007 12:31PM

Why are they there?

Why are some more noticeable than others?

Do they detract from a coin's grade?

Check out these die polish lines:

Teach me, please!

Longacre · April 21, 2007 12:33PM

Are those polish lines or scratches?

SilverEagles92 · April 21, 2007 12:34PM

<< Are those polish lines or scratches? >>

They're not scratches... I don't think. They're just in the field.

Rob85635 · April 21, 2007 12:35PM

I thought polish lines meant the coin would have "raised" areas. Those look recessed, or am I seeing things?

Longacre · April 21, 2007 12:35PM

<< I thought polish lines meant the coin would have "raised" areas. Those look recessed, or am I seeing things? >>

That's what I was thinking, but let's see.

TomB · April 21, 2007 12:36PM

It may simply be an artifact of the lighting, but they look like scratches to me.

Zoins · April 21, 2007 12:36PM

Are they raised?

SilverEagles92 · April 21, 2007 12:38PM

I hope they're not... This is a coin I was considering purchasing. If they're scratches, I don't want it.

StrikeOutXXX · April 21, 2007 12:42PM

Only pic I have online at the moment. It depends how deep the polisher goes into the die. Then when the die strikes the planchet, the metal flows up into the grooves in the die leaving the raised areas as seen here. Since the design/details are incuse in the die, they seldom show the polish lines, as they usually only reside on the flat surfaces of the die that become the fields on the coin. I would imagine this coin was struck shortly after the polishing as they're fairly well defined. After a thousands of strikes, these lines will gradually even out and not show that well.

Just based on the picture, your coin looks more like a cleaning/scratches than DP lines, but maybe it's just the picture. Not sure if back then they polished both the obv & rev at the same time, but most I have found are just one or the other, not both.

RWB · April 21, 2007 12:43PM

Your coin appears to have been scratched by an abrasive such as baking soda used in an attempt to “clean” the coin.

“Die scratches” result from a die being damaged in use often by excessive polishing. They cut into the surface of the die and on the coin, they will be raised. Usually, they look less “sharp” than scratches, because the die scratches are smoothed slightly during use of the die.

Since the field is normally the highest area of a die, die scratches will seem to go “under” stars, lettering and other raised parts of the coin. Die scratches are often parallel.

There appear to be some die scratches in the field at the eagle's wings near the body. Compare these, to the fine abrasion scratches on the obverse. Strikeout's example (through the word "GOD") is very good!

This is just the surface of die damage, but I hope it helps.

Type2 · April 21, 2007 12:44PM

Polish lines

LincolnGrader · April 21, 2007 12:52PM

If you look where the lines meet the devices, You will see they stop short of them. Like around the stars.
This is because the q-tip or whatever was used, could not get in close to the crease or corner of the coin.
If this was polish lines on a die.. The devices would be sunken and the polish lines would stop right at the stars, and continue on the
other side.. If looking with a loop, it would be easy to see them raised as well..
It is my opinion that die polish lines do detract from the higher grades, starting at ms65 and increasing in their importance as
the grades go higher. This being because of the importance in ms66 or higher, of eye appeal. Still this is just one point, in just one aspect of a coins grade.
But if the die polish lines are overly noticable. It would be what i think of as grade perventing in ms67

Barndog · April 21, 2007 12:52PM

next time you get to a large show, go to the ICG table and take their grading challenge. Included in the challenge (at least the last two times I tried it) is a Lincoln cent wtih die polish lines. To the naked eye, the die polish lines make the coin looked scrubbed clean. Then you examine the lines under magnfication and you discover this is no cleaned coin. It does pay to examine a few examples in hand.

SilverEagles92 · April 21, 2007 12:53PM

Guys... This coin is in a NGC holder as MS60

Barndog · April 21, 2007 12:56PM

<< Guys... This coin is in a NGC holder as MS60 >>

that doesn't make a lot of difference in opinion, at least that's my guess. View it in hand and form your opinion as to what all the ugliness is.

RWB · April 21, 2007 12:59PM

Let the coin "speak" for itself. A nice AU58 will often look better (except for the trace of wear and break in the lustre) than a MS-60.

Also, notice the incomplete strike - reverse, eagle's talon and arrow feathers, eagle's beak; obverse, central hair curls. SF usually did a good job on these smaller gold coins.

Longacre · April 21, 2007 1:03PM

<< Guys... This coin is in a NGC holder as MS60 >>

, although I would be more shocked if the coin was in a PCGS slab.

CarlWohlforth · April 21, 2007 1:11PM

I assume the NGC graders know that die polish causes raised lines on a coin while cleaning will gouge the coin. Professional graders are sometimes wrong but they are right more often than I, a non-professional. Anyway evidence of die polish is easy to see. The lines are raised above the surface of the coin and will leave a shadow when light strikes the coin at an angle.

If you are not looking at the coin in hand and are considering a purchase I would strongly recommend not buying the coin unless you can return the coin, no questions asked, for a full refund. That is because photos don't tell the whole story and can be manipulated. Also professional graders can be wrong sometimes.

A grade of 60 is not the grade I like to buy. I much prefer to buy XF or AU or MS 63. 60 is a wishy washy grade for a coin that might be MS but just doesn't look good. In the case of this coin the polishing (must be die polish assuming the NGC graders are awake) is so severe it does detract from both the eye appeal and the grade of the coin...

CarlWohlforth · April 21, 2007 1:14PM

You can see that Type2's Lincoln was after a die clash. When the dies strike each other w/o a planchet in between on die leaves an impression on the other. When the Mint employees notice they stop the press and polish the die to remove evidence of clashing. When it was a bad clash they have to polish a lot. Sometimes they should toss the dies in the trash. However they may have production quotas...

pb2y · April 21, 2007 1:58PM

Just another quality control problem of interest but a small concern.
Die polish lines are the result of a faulty upsetting die. The upsetting die
and press is used to produce a blank "slug' with clear fields and rims.
The blank then goes to the coining press. The legend and relief of a coin
will never retain the faults of the upsetting die. The Lincoln photos in
this thread are excellent examples of die polish lines.

foundinrolls · April 21, 2007 2:21PM

Just a personal opinion but i would steer clear of that coin. If the color is even lose to accurate in the photo, you can see that the areas between the stars were not "cleaned" as well as some of the other areas. That is the likely cause for the lines in the fields not being on the higher details.

I must say though that the face seems to have a fair share of scratches too.

Die polish lines usually dissapear after a few strikes and this coin doesn't have the kind of detail you would expect to see on a coin with that many "die polish" lines. That's why I think theyr are scratches but you have to decide for yourself.

Bill

mozin · April 21, 2007 2:59PM

I really cannot tell from your pictures whether or not your goldie is damaged, or has extensive die polish lines. My guess is die polish lines. If NGC graded the coin with all those polish lines, I wonder why it was not called prooflike. There could be more going on with this coin than one can see from pictures.

You can easily tell with coin in hand. Die polish lines are above the surface of the fields, hairlines are scratched into the fields.

This Pilgrim most definitely has die polish lines, not hairlines.

airedale · April 21, 2007 5:38PM

<<

Only pic I have online at the moment. It depends how deep the polisher goes into the die. Then when the die strikes the planchet, the metal flows up into the grooves in the die leaving the raised areas as seen here. Since the design/details are incuse in the die, they seldom show the polish lines, as they usually only reside on the flat surfaces of the die that become the fields on the coin. I would imagine this coin was struck shortly after the polishing as they're fairly well defined. After a thousands of strikes, these lines will gradually even out and not show that well.

Just based on the picture, your coin looks more like a cleaning/scratches than DP lines, but maybe it's just the picture. Not sure if back then they polished both the obv & rev at the same time, but most I have found are just one or the other, not both. >>

Wonderful photography and an educational post.

Thenewguy · April 22, 2007 5:37AM

Looks like it could be some of both scratches and DP lines but is hard to tell with those pic's.

These are the best pic's I have of DP lines on a coin..

Type2 · April 22, 2007 5:50AM

befor and after I was looking at five rolls and found the befor in one of the rolls.

crito · April 22, 2007 11:22AM

<< befor and after I was looking at five rolls and found the befor in one of the rolls. >>

Cool before and after pics. You can clearly see the clash marks from reverse. The few coins I have with heavy polish like that also show signs of the dies having clashed. Seems to be a common solution to the problem.

You can see the dies clashed TWICE on this one, as second time reverse shield was slightly rotated.

basestealer · April 22, 2007 11:29AM

Always harshly clean your coins with the grain!

TwoKopeiki · April 22, 2007 1:46PM

I'm currently soaking an 8 Reales in acetone with heavy die polishing lines, as well as numerous die breaks. But here's one of the pieces I have imaged - The eagle on 1849 Potosi 8 Reales:

TwoKopeiki · April 22, 2007 1:50PM

Hmm, actually, this one is die scratch, not polishing...

Nevermind

Teach me about Die Polish Lines

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