Kagin's expulsion hearing will not be heard in St. Louis. Should it be an open hearing?
Longacre
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I just received the latest issue of CW. It is being reported that the hearing for the expulsion of Don Kagin from the ANA will not be held in St. Louis at the Central States show. The reason is timing. Without going into the details, there are a certain number of days that a person has to respond to a complaint, and then a certain number of days for a response to the response, etc. There are simply not enough days to have everything buttoned up before the Central States show.
In order to make this an official thread, I need to ask a question. Should the Kagin hearing be held in an open forum or in a closed session? I have my thoughts, but one thing that I do not want to see is this hearing become a media circus. There are other reasons that I will comment on later, but I was hoping to get the thoughts of others. What do you think?
In order to make this an official thread, I need to ask a question. Should the Kagin hearing be held in an open forum or in a closed session? I have my thoughts, but one thing that I do not want to see is this hearing become a media circus. There are other reasons that I will comment on later, but I was hoping to get the thoughts of others. What do you think?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
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Please remember that we should use a presumption of innocence here.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>It's about a gold ingot. >>
The contractor who stole it is in jail.
What do we need a hearing for ? Is this based on that story ?
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Someone has a ax to grind and that is it.
Ken
It should be open. Who can trust the ANA at this point ? For those of you that don't know the details, it's been covered in CW. I for one think Kagin should go. I find it completely implausible that he didn't know what he was doing.
Doesn't Don Kagin have to be guilty of a crime in a court of law before the ANA can expell him?
I can understand a "leave of absence" to give him a chance to clear his name if and only charged with a crime in a court of law.
If there is no court of law involved, there should be no expulsion nor suspension unless he agrees to such suspension.
<< <i>Just a curious question.
Doesn't Don Kagin have to be guilty of a crime in a court of law before the ANA can expell him?
I can understand a "leave of absence" to give him a chance to clear his name if and only charged with a crime in a court of law.
If there is no court of law involved, there should be no expulsion nor suspension unless he agrees to such suspension. >>
I asked if there was a real lawsuit in addition to the ANA hearing. I have not heard of one, though.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>No, I believe the hearing should be closed, to be fair to both Mr. Manley and Mr. Kagin. >>
I agree.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I knew it would happen.
The allegation is that Don knew that the bar was stolen when he tried to broker it. In addition to being very difficult to believe, it's impossible to prove.
Kagin is the expert in California gold, and he knew all about the Blake Bar. He recorded the transaction when Manley bought the bar at auction.
I believe he did record the bidder number of the phone bidder that purchased the bar at the auction. However, he never knew the identity of that bidder.
Regardless, Dwight might have sold the bar in years subsequent to the auction. That would have certainly been a more likely scenario than what actually happened.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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<< <i>Anyone who thinks the case would become a media circus if opened to the public should take a few steps back into real life to gain some perspective. >>
The only media that might be present would be representing CW and NN....maybe. It makes a good discussion topic on the CU forum.
<< <i> Hard to believe, but he "lost" a 94S dime. >>
Was he storing it in his garage?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
roadrunner
<< <i>The Kagin family coin dynasty goes back decades. I've never quite understood the allure.
roadrunner >>
Lets see -
Art Kagin - Successful coin, and, later, currency dealer. Claimed to have handled almost every one of every national bank note ever made. Always had a rhyme involving his age (Example: I'm eighty one and on the run). Good sense of humour and a sharp memory. Passed away in summer 2005.
Paul Kagin - brother of Art, successful coin dealer back in the day. At one time, he was partnered with Art in the business. Still around but retired.
Don Kagin, PhD (Numismatics) - son of Art, successful coin dealer, worked with Art until the early 80's (correct me if I'm wrong) when he started Kagin's. Currently the only person in the USA with a doctorate in numismatics.
Judith Kagin - daughter of Art and sister of Don, employed with Kagin's.
And there you have it - a brief summary of the Kagins.
<< <i>Anyone who thinks the case would become a media circus if opened to the public should take a few steps back into real life to gain some perspective. >>
You don't think CNN and MSNBC will have a crew there?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>I predict an "out of court" settlement with both sides giving $$$$$ to our ANA. >>
Well, that seems to be what motivates "our ANA" these days.
And if I'm off base about that, I'd love to see the board increase their transparency so I can see for myself that I'm wrong.
<< <i>Closed hearing--Don is a great guy and doesn't deserve what he is getting. It should be kept as quiet as possible >>
All I have to say is "GOOD LUCK!"
<< <i>I do not see an out of court settlement coming here. Dwight was wronged period.
I suspect Dwight will want justice-he does not need the money. I am sure he feels its time for someones dues to be paid. Its not like this is a "out of character assination" by Dwight on Kagin.
The chances of not knowing where that bar originally came from are slim. After all, it seemed other people sure knew-who weren't keeping track of them. Its like me not knowing where all the 1913 5C are. Please!
As far as a media circus, you guys are right! NN and CW just clog the streets when they are chasing a story! But who knows, maybe CNN will find this case much more exctiing than the coyote that ran into a store in Chicago a few weeks ago....
Of course everyone is innocent until proven quilty. >>
Laura---It sure sounds like you already made up your mind. Was Manley ever one of your customers?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Just out of curiousity, what is the burden of proof that the ANA has to meet here? Is it akin to beyond a reasonable doubt or more likely than not? It seems like the former would be an extremely difficult burden to meet in such a case without direct proof. >>
Article III of the ANA bylaws addresses it, but it's a long read that only a lawyer could love.
<< <i>In the absence of hard evidence, does the ANA need to hear an admission of guilt? >>
I'm glossing over Article 3 rather quickly, but I see no specific burden-of-proof requirement listed.
Since it's not a criminal proceeding, I doubt that it's a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard and probably more like the "preponderance of the evidence" standard as found in civil courts. But I could easily be wrong.
<< <i>In the absence of hard evidence, does the ANA need to hear an admission of guilt? >>
Yes, they do. Board members are held to the highest ethical standards (as stated in their bylaws), and since Dr. Kagin is a governor (and dealer), this applies to him.
Puhleeez. Let us not refer to him as "Dr. Kagin". As far as I am concerned, and with all do respect to him as a coin dealer and ANA governor, that degree is a farce.
<< <i>...since Dr. Kagin is a governor (and dealer), this applies to him.
Puhleeez. Let us not refer to him as "Dr. Kagin". As far as I am concerned, and with all do respect to him as a coin dealer and ANA governor, that degree is a farce. >>
Only MD's should be addressed as Doctor?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>...since Dr. Kagin is a governor (and dealer), this applies to him. >>
Puhleeez. Let us not refer to him as "Dr. Kagin". As far as I am concerned, and with all do respect to him as a coin dealer and ANA governor, that degree is a farce. >>
Only MD's should be addressed as Doctor?
Does anyone know what year and from what institution Don Kagin received his degree? I've searched on the Internet but I've only found references to "the only PhD in numismatics." Most people people like to publicize the institution granting their degree so this is a bit puzzling. Does anyone know if he did a dissertation and, if so, what was it on?
<< <i>
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<< <i>
<< <i>...since Dr. Kagin is a governor (and dealer), this applies to him. >>
Puhleeez. Let us not refer to him as "Dr. Kagin". As far as I am concerned, and with all do respect to him as a coin dealer and ANA governor, that degree is a farce. >>
Only MD's should be addressed as Doctor?
Does anyone know what year and from what institution Don Kagin received his degree? I've searched on the Internet but I've only found references to "the only PhD in numismatics." Most people people like to publicize the institution granting their degree so this is a bit puzzling. Does anyone know if he did a dissertation and, if so, what was it on? >>
From the Kagins.com website:
DONALD H. KAGIN, Ph.D.
Numismatist Donald H. Kagin has unique credentials as a numismatic authority. He earned the first Bachelor of Arts degree in Numismatics granted by Northwestern University, simultaneously earning another B.A. in history. Graduate and post-graduate studies at Northwestern, Drake University, John Hopkins University, the American Numismatic Society Museum, the Smithsonian Institution, and the Union Graduate School earned Don the first Doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States.
<< <i>From the Kagins.com website:
DONALD H. KAGIN, Ph.D.
Numismatist Donald H. Kagin has unique credentials as a numismatic authority. He earned the first Bachelor of Arts degree in Numismatics granted by Northwestern University, simultaneously earning another B.A. in history. Graduate and post-graduate studies at Northwestern, Drake University, John Hopkins University, the American Numismatic Society Museum, the Smithsonian Institution, and the Union Graduate School earned Don the first Doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States. >>
Does anyone else find it interesting that Northwestern (excellent institution btw) is highlighted for granting the Bachelor degrees but there is no institution listed as explicitly granting the doctorate degree? One can perform graduate and post-graduate studies at many institutions and never receive a degree. Which institution actually issued the PhD diploma? Is it one of the ones listed or is it not on the list?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Don Kagin's PhD thesis became the basis for his book on privately issued gold coins which is currently the standard reference in this field of numismatics. >>
But no one knows which institution granted the PhD? It seems like a very simple question.
Many doctorate theses become books but many of them also list which institution granted the author's PhD.
<< <i>Does anyone else find it interesting that Northwestern (excellent institution btw) is highlighted for granting the Bachelor degrees but there is no institution listed as explicitly granting the doctorate degree? One can perform graduate and post-graduate studies at many institutions and never receive a degree. Which institution actually issued the PhD diploma? Is it one of the ones listed or is it not on the list? >>
Here it is:
"Union Graduate School earned Don the first Doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States."
Link-o-matic
However, I am not sure why we are dissecting his educational credentials.
<< <i>Here it is:
"Union Graduate School earned Don the first Doctorate in Numismatics ever granted in the United States." >>
I don't read it that way. Union is the last of a list that you are taking out of context.
<< <i>However, I am not sure why we are dissecting his educational credentials ... they seem pretty solid. >>
I guess that depends on your perspective. As I mentioned PhD granting institutions are often explicitly listed which doesn't seem to be the case here.
Link-o-matic
<< <i>Oops. Looks like it is an online school. It also looks like he made up his own degree... kind of cheesy
Link-o-matic >>
If that's the one, it's certainly not the kind of school one would want explicitly linked to one's PhD credential. From a marketing perspective, it would make sense to preface the list with a number of more impressive institutions to divert attention. It could have been better to leave it off of the list entirely, which would be more ambiguous but still technically true
All the evidence will be out in the open. The Board can make their decision. The public can make their own decisions after the evidence has been published by the numismatic press.
If Don should change his mind, then it could be held privately.
A few years ago, Mrs. Hager filed a complaint against governor Barry Stupler. It was subsequently heard in open session, which serves as a presedence for this.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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