I have been collecting a set of these for myself (and for each of my kids) and have set aside 5 washington dollars for each set: P- letters up, P-letters down, D-letters up, D-letters down, and plain.
The mint has stated that it is random which is which. Evidence indicates that this is largely true. One does not seem to be more rare than the other (as of now).
I think it is entirely appropriate to indicate them as Type 1 and Type 2. Make "type 1" orientation match the orientation of the lettering on the proofs; "type 2" will be the alternate case. Type 3 could be the smooth edge coins in the series. Similar examples exist: with/without stars, with/without arrow, with/without drapery, with/without rays, etc. I don't see "letters up/letters down" being fundamentally different.
Eric
EAC member since 2011, one third of the way through my 1793 large cent type set
It's not a joke, or an April Fool's question/situation.
It's a genuine question, made in total seriousness.
I've already stated my position; we'll have to see the outcome.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
With the assumption that placement of the lettering is nearly random then I don't believe there should be any differentiation in designation. If it can be shown that one is significantly scarcer then it would create interest since it could be shown there was a "right way" and a "wrong way" to make these.
It would make more sense to differentiate the orientation of the clad planchets to the dies than orientation of the lettering.
In fact if you could tell more easily with the golden dollars which side was on the top of the strip there could be 4 different orientations; lettering right-side up on right side up planchet, right-side up on up-side down, up-side down on right side up, and up-side down on up-side down. Each should account for about 25% of production.
It's hard to believe many collectors will be interested unless some pattern can be shown and it's hard to believe that there's much other than mere chance in the frequency with which these occur since the riddlers tend to randomize orientations and each stage of production has to be able to properly handle planchets and coins regardless of orietation.
I'm a little surprised someone who has looked at a lot of these hasn't chimed in yet.
<< <i>I think it is entirely appropriate to indicate them as Type 1 and Type 2. Make "type 1" orientation match the orientation of the lettering on the proofs; "type 2" will be the alternate case. Type 3 could be the smooth edge coins in the series. Similar examples exist: with/without stars, with/without arrow, with/without drapery, with/without rays, etc. I don't see "letters up/letters down" being fundamentally different.
Eric >>
I is extremely different. The stars, arrows, rays are different dies and in fact, intentionally different designs. The edge lettering is the same die and is only different due to the laws of probability and have nothing to do with minting a coin. As I said in my first post to this thread, you should also then, determine if the obverse die hit the top of the planchet or the bottom. It has the same meaning.
As I said in my first post to this thread, you should also then, determine if the obverse die hit the top of the planchet or the bottom. It has the same meaning. >>
Sorry. I missed your post.
I agree entirely. There needs to be some sort of pattern shown for anyone to be interested. There will be no long term interest in these if they are entirely random.
Comments
<< <i>Credibility is everything for a TPG. >>
Credibility has not stopped PCGS from doing stupid things in the past. I'm sure it would play no part in their decision on this matter either.
The mint has stated that it is random which is which. Evidence indicates that this is largely true. One does not seem to be more rare than the other (as of now).
I think it is entirely appropriate to indicate them as Type 1 and Type 2. Make "type 1" orientation match the orientation of the lettering on the proofs; "type 2" will be the alternate case. Type 3 could be the smooth edge coins in the series. Similar examples exist: with/without stars, with/without arrow, with/without drapery, with/without rays, etc. I don't see "letters up/letters down" being fundamentally different.
Eric
It's a genuine question, made in total seriousness.
I've already stated my position; we'll have to see
the outcome.
I don't believe there should be any differentiation in designation. If it can be
shown that one is significantly scarcer then it would create interest since it
could be shown there was a "right way" and a "wrong way" to make these.
It would make more sense to differentiate the orientation of the clad planchets
to the dies than orientation of the lettering.
In fact if you could tell more easily with the golden dollars which side was on
the top of the strip there could be 4 different orientations; lettering right-side
up on right side up planchet, right-side up on up-side down, up-side down on
right side up, and up-side down on up-side down. Each should account for
about 25% of production.
It's hard to believe many collectors will be interested unless some pattern can
be shown and it's hard to believe that there's much other than mere chance
in the frequency with which these occur since the riddlers tend to randomize
orientations and each stage of production has to be able to properly handle
planchets and coins regardless of orietation.
I'm a little surprised someone who has looked at a lot of these hasn't chimed
in yet.
<< <i>I think it is entirely appropriate to indicate them as Type 1 and Type 2. Make "type 1" orientation match the orientation of the lettering on the proofs; "type 2" will be the alternate case. Type 3 could be the smooth edge coins in the series. Similar examples exist: with/without stars, with/without arrow, with/without drapery, with/without rays, etc. I don't see "letters up/letters down" being fundamentally different.
Eric >>
I is extremely different. The stars, arrows, rays are different dies and in fact, intentionally different designs. The edge lettering is the same die and is only different due to the laws of probability and have nothing to do with minting a coin. As I said in my first post to this thread, you should also then, determine if the obverse die hit the top of the planchet or the bottom. It has the same meaning.
<< <i>
As I said in my first post to this thread, you should also then, determine if the obverse die hit the top of the planchet or the bottom. It has the same meaning. >>
Sorry. I missed your post.
I agree entirely. There needs to be some sort of pattern shown for anyone to be interested. There will be no long term interest in these if they are entirely random.
<< <i>Should PCGS designate upside-down/right-side up edge lettering on Presidential Dollars? >>
Looks like the answer was "YES".
It was a mistake labeling those BS nickels and it will be a mistake when you label that BirthDot Kennedy also.
<< <i>No
It was a mistake labeling those BS nickels and it will be a mistake when you label that BirthDot Kennedy also. >>
Geez, what did Russ do to tick you off?
<< <i>
<< <i>No
It was a mistake labeling those BS nickels and it will be a mistake when you label that BirthDot Kennedy also. >>
Geez, what did Russ do to tick you off? >>
Why do you think Russ ticked me off
<< <i>No >>
Why are you still "voting"? It's a Done Deal™, despite what he said on the Q&A forum.