<< That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >>
Grady?
Grady Sizemore??
I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management).
Yeah, everyone sure does agree with you, don't they?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think it would be interesting to hear your case for why Reyes is clearly superior to Sizemore.
I certainly don't think that Sizemore is clearly superior to Reyes, as TraderShea claims, do you? Or that Reyes is "not that great of a baserunner" do you? I'd much rather have Jose Reyes on my team batting leadoff, but that's my opinion, after all. It's not like I'm going out on a limb here--many baseball fans think that Reyes is the most exciting and one of the very best all around players in MLB. Again, as I stated in a previous thread, I am biased as a Mets fan, but my opinion is that Reyes is the superior player.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i><< That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >> Grady? Grady Sizemore?? I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management).
Yeah, everyone sure does agree with you, don't they? >>
Dude, WTF??? Ok, he doesnt think Sizemore is the best in the majors ~ and nor do I BTW, hence the reason I never said he was!!! I stated that other managers and GMs have said that about him though and a someone reiterated that just a couple posts later! So, the person you quote wanted to know what Manager or GM would say that and I told him that his Manager (Ozzie Guilen of the WhiteSox) was one of those that I have heard make that statement! I gave the best quote I could quickly find off the internet from one of the interviews he gave when he was making those statements to back up what I had said. See that? Its called backing up a claim! (albeit I wasnt able to find the quote I was looking for...)
But read his statement again, it doesnt say anything near "Reyes is better than Sizemore" so why the heck would you bring it up anyway? Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick and you still just look like a fool...
Oh, and this: “I certainly don't think that Sizemore is clearly superior to Reyes, as TraderShea claims, do you? Or that Reyes is "not that great of a baserunner" do you? I'd much rather have Jose Reyes on my team batting leadoff, but that's my opinion, after all. It's not like I'm going out on a limb here--many baseball fans think that Reyes is the most exciting and one of the very best all around players in MLB. Again, as I stated in a previous thread, I am biased as a Mets fan, but my opinion is that Reyes is the superior player.” Isn’t an answer to this: “I think it would be interesting to hear your case for why Reyes is clearly superior to Sizemore.”
… all you did was say “I like him better” and that in the real world means nothing!!! No one cares what ‘joe-schmo average fan you’ thinks, esp when that’s the only thing you have to back up your “Reyes is far better than Sizemore” statement!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
.. oh and yes Sizemore is far and away superior to Reyes in every way possible except Ks. I will also give you the SB totals as well but the truth is Jose isn’t that great of a base runner ~
Wow, do you even watch baseball games outside of Cleveland, that is? I can't see how is you can make statements like these with a straight face.
<< << That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >> Grady?
Nice spin move there, BTW. Sounds like you agree with that statement, too, to me. I mean, why state it if you don't agree with it?
Best leadoff hitter - without a doubt. I would love to have him on my team
Another vote for Reyes as best leadoff hitter...do you even read any posts other than your own biased ones???
Oh, and here's another key statistical area where Reyes outshines Sizemore:
Clearly, Reyes excels far better than Sizemore in the most key situations, i.e. runners on base and RISP. And better power numbers, too!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's obvious that we've reached a stalemate here, so I'm not going to pursue this topic any further, as ultimately, most of these debates come down to biased opinions anyway, and it's quite apparent that neither of us is going to convince the other he's wrong, so let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. As I said much earlier in this thread, time will tell as to who turns out to be the better player, but in the meantime spirited debate is also entertaining, all else aside.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's obvious that we've reached a stalemate here, so I'm not going to pursue this topic any further, as ultimately, most of these debates come down to biased opinions anyway, and it's quite apparent that neither of us is going to convince the other he's wrong, so let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. As I said much earlier in this thread, time will tell as to who turns out to be the better player, but in the meantime spirited debate is also entertaining, all else aside. >>
What??? hahaha... well your statement would be great to hear had we actually taken part in a debate, unfortunately I feel quite cheated in this though as you have not given anything to back up your claims other than "IMO" or the constant nitpicking over any detail you didnt like in things I said. I guess you take things like links to articles of others making claims which back me up, VORP and RC numbers which show a drastic advantage for Sizemore and a base stat-line which ranks up there with some of the best we have ever seen in the history of the game is all my “bias” towards a Tribe player while your… well did you have anything to back you up other than that self-proclaimed bias? I have to admit I would’ve liked to of had at least one question answered and had actually just typed this up for you to answer to see if you were even capable of responding to a direct request...
Which of the following players was the best base runner in 06? A) Jose Reyes 64 SB, 17 CS Corey Patterson 45 SB, 9 CS C) Jimmy Rollins 36 SB, 4 CS D) Ichiro Suzuki 45 SB, 2 CS E) Carl Crawford 58 SB, 9 CS F) Dave Roberts 49 SB, 6 CS
... but if you feel as though you are not to post in this thread again its just as well; there was nothing you could even begin to state which would show Reyes to be the better player. That, I believe, is why you never gave any facts to try ~ they just aren’t there to be used so how can you present them?
I wish I could walk away from this thinking that you are a knowledgeable baseball fan with the ability to hold an informative and intelligent conversation, but alas life is full of disappointments…
~~~ Update ~~~ Oh, I see you have taken to editing previous posts to try and act as though you ever provided any kind of argument… classic!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Clearly, Reyes excels far better than Sizemore in the most key situations, i.e. runners on base and RISP. And better power numbers, too!
Good try, though, better luck next time, champ!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I wish I could walk away from this thinking that you are a knowledgeable baseball fan with the ability to hold an informative and intelligent conversation, but alas life is full of disappointments…
Oh, the hyperbole!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You really had to pick and choose on those stats huh? You left a couple important ones out though…
Close and late: Reyes ~ .264 / .343 / .396 / .739 Grady ~ .295 / .378 / .526 / .904 (humm, lets hope we don’t have to rely on Jose in our late inning rallies)
Bases loaded: Reyes ~ .375 / .500 / .875 / 1.375 Grady ~ .500 / .563 / .833 / 1.396 (both very good, but damn that .500/.563 looks might fine)
Man on 3rd, 2 out: Reyes ~ .250 / .318 / .250 / .568 Grady ~ .364 / .379 / .500 / .879 (I actually think that Alex Cora pinch hit for him in these situations last year and they just gave Reyes the credit for the ABs)
Or we can look at the situation that a leadoff hitter is in most often and one of the most important for your “rally starting” lineup spot… None on: Reyes ~ .293 / .341 / .453 / .794 Grady ~ .304 / .382 / .586 / .968 (each of the two had 437 ABs with none on in 06 ~ or nearly 7/10 of their ABs)
And lets do one more thing, lets expand it to the three year averages on the situational hitting since this often varies greatly from year to year and see if it stays the same…
Humm… Sizemore seems to have caught up quite a bit when we factored it over more than just one years stats, and even become the better “runners on” hitter by quite a large margin. But I’m curious, if Reyes was so good in 06 in these situations how would his numbers round down to those 3 year averages? Oh yeah maybe it has something to do with these stats… RISP: 05 Reyes .273 / .295 / .403 / .698 05 Grady .300 / .359 / .462 / .821
Like I said, situational hitting varies greatly from year to year and you can’t base an argument solely off of it… Nice try though!
Listen, you haven’t given anything which has even begun to prove a point and it’s really way past pointless trying to talk in a logical manor with you. If you want to build a response full of real evidence as a thought-out argument for your theory then feel free ~ otherwise I’m not going to respond again myself. You can jump in with all the small snippets of truth (like your selective situational hitting stats in the last post) if you want, but its really just grabbing for straws at this point and without said thought-out response it’s the only thing you have given to try to prove a point which has been more than proved in Sizemore’s favor long ago…
You know what, no ~ I will only respond to you if you can prove Reyes can be the ‘far better player’ despite these four things; without doing so your argument will never have any merit what so ever, period…
WARP: 6.8 ~ Reyes 8.7 ~ Sizemore
VORP: 58.8 ~ Reyes 69.1 ~ Sizemore
RC/27: 6.60 ~ Reyes 7.56 ~ Sizemore
OPS: .841 ~ Reyes .908 ~ Sizemore
Honestly, those four stat-lines are all that are really needed to completely shoot your “Reyes is better” argument out of the water… Good luck proving otherwise!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen) and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Wow I detect some huge man crushes going on in this thread. I wish I had the time and energy to be this type of stat geek (seriously I love stats). There can be now way to "win" these type of arguments as there is no criteria for winning. It's not like a debate contest where a judge will award a winner based on best evidence and how many points were countered or dropped. In the future however I will nominate Boo as judge. He seems qualified to make determinations of man crush debate winners.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Comments
Grady?
Grady Sizemore??
I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management).
Yeah, everyone sure does agree with you, don't they?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I certainly don't think that Sizemore is clearly superior to Reyes, as TraderShea claims, do you? Or that Reyes is "not that great of a baserunner" do you? I'd much rather have Jose Reyes on my team batting leadoff, but that's my opinion, after all. It's not like I'm going out on a limb here--many baseball fans think that Reyes is the most exciting and one of the very best all around players in MLB. Again, as I stated in a previous thread, I am biased as a Mets fan, but my opinion is that Reyes is the superior player.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i><< That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >>
Grady?
Grady Sizemore??
I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management).
Yeah, everyone sure does agree with you, don't they?
Dude, WTF??? Ok, he doesnt think Sizemore is the best in the majors ~ and nor do I BTW, hence the reason I never said he was!!! I stated that other managers and GMs have said that about him though and a someone reiterated that just a couple posts later! So, the person you quote wanted to know what Manager or GM would say that and I told him that his Manager (Ozzie Guilen of the WhiteSox) was one of those that I have heard make that statement! I gave the best quote I could quickly find off the internet from one of the interviews he gave when he was making those statements to back up what I had said. See that? Its called backing up a claim! (albeit I wasnt able to find the quote I was looking for...)
But read his statement again, it doesnt say anything near "Reyes is better than Sizemore" so why the heck would you bring it up anyway? Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick and you still just look like a fool...
Oh, and this:
“I certainly don't think that Sizemore is clearly superior to Reyes, as TraderShea claims, do you? Or that Reyes is "not that great of a baserunner" do you? I'd much rather have Jose Reyes on my team batting leadoff, but that's my opinion, after all. It's not like I'm going out on a limb here--many baseball fans think that Reyes is the most exciting and one of the very best all around players in MLB. Again, as I stated in a previous thread, I am biased as a Mets fan, but my opinion is that Reyes is the superior player.”
Isn’t an answer to this:
“I think it would be interesting to hear your case for why Reyes is clearly superior to Sizemore.”
… all you did was say “I like him better” and that in the real world means nothing!!! No one cares what ‘joe-schmo average fan you’ thinks, esp when that’s the only thing you have to back up your “Reyes is far better than Sizemore” statement!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
<< <i>I think it would be interesting to hear your case for why Reyes is clearly superior to Sizemore. >>
Boopotts,
Thank you!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
<< << That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >>
Grady?
Nice spin move there, BTW. Sounds like you agree with that statement, too, to me. I mean, why state it if you don't agree with it?
Best leadoff hitter - without a doubt. I would love to have him on my team
Another vote for Reyes as best leadoff hitter...do you even read any posts other than your own biased ones???
Oh, and here's another key statistical area where Reyes outshines Sizemore:
Reyes
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Runners On 138 210 113 66 5 8 10 72 22 32 64 17 .314 .379 .557 .936
RISP 125 137 104 46 4 7 7 65 17 25 13 3 .336 .409 .620 1.030
RISP w/2 Outs 81 70 29 29 4 4 6 44 12 12 10 1 .414 .500 .843 1.343
Sizemore
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Runners On 153 218 112 57 12 3 6 54 32 56 22 6 .261 .360 .427 .787
RISP 127 130 105 34 7 1 4 48 23 33 5 1 .262 .371 .423 .794
RISP w/2 Outs 75 61 31 16 2 0 4 22 13 16 1 0 .262 .400 .492 .892
Clearly, Reyes excels far better than Sizemore in the most key situations, i.e. runners on base and RISP. And better power numbers, too!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
It's obvious that we've reached a stalemate here, so I'm not going to pursue this topic any further, as ultimately, most of these debates come down to biased opinions anyway, and it's quite apparent that neither of us is going to convince the other he's wrong, so let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. As I said much earlier in this thread, time will tell as to who turns out to be the better player, but in the meantime spirited debate is also entertaining, all else aside.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Trader,
It's obvious that we've reached a stalemate here, so I'm not going to pursue this topic any further, as ultimately, most of these debates come down to biased opinions anyway, and it's quite apparent that neither of us is going to convince the other he's wrong, so let's just agree to disagree, and leave it at that. As I said much earlier in this thread, time will tell as to who turns out to be the better player, but in the meantime spirited debate is also entertaining, all else aside. >>
What??? hahaha... well your statement would be great to hear had we actually taken part in a debate, unfortunately I feel quite cheated in this though as you have not given anything to back up your claims other than "IMO" or the constant nitpicking over any detail you didnt like in things I said. I guess you take things like links to articles of others making claims which back me up, VORP and RC numbers which show a drastic advantage for Sizemore and a base stat-line which ranks up there with some of the best we have ever seen in the history of the game is all my “bias” towards a Tribe player while your… well did you have anything to back you up other than that self-proclaimed bias? I have to admit I would’ve liked to of had at least one question answered and had actually just typed this up for you to answer to see if you were even capable of responding to a direct request...
Which of the following players was the best base runner in 06?
A) Jose Reyes 64 SB, 17 CS
C) Jimmy Rollins 36 SB, 4 CS
D) Ichiro Suzuki 45 SB, 2 CS
E) Carl Crawford 58 SB, 9 CS
F) Dave Roberts 49 SB, 6 CS
... but if you feel as though you are not to post in this thread again its just as well; there was nothing you could even begin to state which would show Reyes to be the better player. That, I believe, is why you never gave any facts to try ~ they just aren’t there to be used so how can you present them?
I wish I could walk away from this thinking that you are a knowledgeable baseball fan with the ability to hold an informative and intelligent conversation, but alas life is full of disappointments…
~~~ Update ~~~
Oh, I see you have taken to editing previous posts to try and act as though you ever provided any kind of argument… classic!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Reyes
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Runners On 138 210 113 66 5 8 10 72 22 32 64 17 .314 .379 .557 .936
RISP 125 137 104 46 4 7 7 65 17 25 13 3 .336 .409 .620 1.030
RISP w/2 Outs 81 70 29 29 4 4 6 44 12 12 10 1 .414 .500 .843 1.343
Sizemore
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Runners On 153 218 112 57 12 3 6 54 32 56 22 6 .261 .360 .427 .787
RISP 127 130 105 34 7 1 4 48 23 33 5 1 .262 .371 .423 .794
RISP w/2 Outs 75 61 31 16 2 0 4 22 13 16 1 0 .262 .400 .492 .892
Clearly, Reyes excels far better than Sizemore in the most key situations, i.e. runners on base and RISP. And better power numbers, too!
Good try, though, better luck next time, champ!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Oh, the hyperbole!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Close and late:
Reyes ~ .264 / .343 / .396 / .739
Grady ~ .295 / .378 / .526 / .904
(humm, lets hope we don’t have to rely on Jose in our late inning rallies)
Bases loaded:
Reyes ~ .375 / .500 / .875 / 1.375
Grady ~ .500 / .563 / .833 / 1.396
(both very good, but damn that .500/.563 looks might fine)
Man on 3rd, 2 out:
Reyes ~ .250 / .318 / .250 / .568
Grady ~ .364 / .379 / .500 / .879
(I actually think that Alex Cora pinch hit for him in these situations last year and they just gave Reyes the credit for the ABs)
Or we can look at the situation that a leadoff hitter is in most often and one of the most important for your “rally starting” lineup spot…
None on:
Reyes ~ .293 / .341 / .453 / .794
Grady ~ .304 / .382 / .586 / .968
(each of the two had 437 ABs with none on in 06 ~ or nearly 7/10 of their ABs)
And lets do one more thing, lets expand it to the three year averages on the situational hitting since this often varies greatly from year to year and see if it stays the same…
Runners On:
Reyes ~ .283 / .333 / .451 / .784
Grady ~ .292 / .371 / .470 / .841
RISP:
Reyes ~ .304 / .351 / .503 / .854
Grady ~ .275 / .364 / .460 / .794
RISP 2out:
Reyes ~ .318 / .380 / .582 / .962
Grady ~ .268 / .368 / .465 / .833
Humm… Sizemore seems to have caught up quite a bit when we factored it over more than just one years stats, and even become the better “runners on” hitter by quite a large margin. But I’m curious, if Reyes was so good in 06 in these situations how would his numbers round down to those 3 year averages? Oh yeah maybe it has something to do with these stats…
RISP:
05 Reyes .273 / .295 / .403 / .698
05 Grady .300 / .359 / .462 / .821
RISP 2out:
05 Reyes .235 / .262 / .370 / .632
05 Grady .279 / .329 / .471 / .800
Runners On:
05 Reyes .271 / .308 / .386 / .694
05 Grady .324 / .379 / .520 / .899
Like I said, situational hitting varies greatly from year to year and you can’t base an argument solely off of it… Nice try though!
Listen, you haven’t given anything which has even begun to prove a point and it’s really way past pointless trying to talk in a logical manor with you. If you want to build a response full of real evidence as a thought-out argument for your theory then feel free ~ otherwise I’m not going to respond again myself. You can jump in with all the small snippets of truth (like your selective situational hitting stats in the last post) if you want, but its really just grabbing for straws at this point and without said thought-out response it’s the only thing you have given to try to prove a point which has been more than proved in Sizemore’s favor long ago…
You know what, no ~ I will only respond to you if you can prove Reyes can be the ‘far better player’ despite these four things; without doing so your argument will never have any merit what so ever, period…
WARP:
6.8 ~ Reyes
8.7 ~ Sizemore
VORP:
58.8 ~ Reyes
69.1 ~ Sizemore
RC/27:
6.60 ~ Reyes
7.56 ~ Sizemore
OPS:
.841 ~ Reyes
.908 ~ Sizemore
Honestly, those four stat-lines are all that are really needed to completely shoot your “Reyes is better” argument out of the water… Good luck proving otherwise!
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)
Its kind of like some Cubs fan hollering Derrek Lee is far superior to Pujols with their evidence being "I think so, its obvious". Its frustrating...
... BTW, I'm a Mets fan second
Currently searching for 05 Upper Deck Origins & Old Judge Autos #/5 (Feller, Hafner, V.Martinez & Rosen)
and 06 SP Authentic “By The Numbers” Letter Autos (Sabathia, Hafner, Sowers, V.Martinez & Lee)