Jose Reyes...

grote15 · April 6, 2007 11:21AM

is turning into one heckuva ballplayer. I don't think it's inconceivable that he may be an MVP candidate this year.

KOBEcollector · April 6, 2007 11:59AM

Reyes is the best all-around player in the N.L PERIOD

TraderShea · April 6, 2007 12:53PM

Its funny, I remember about a year ago having an argument with a Yankee fan about who one should choose for SS if you were starting a team ~ he of course was yelling and screaming Jeter 'without a doubt' where I was countering with either Rollins or Reyes. Even though Rollins didnt have the greatest of years last year I think the two of those guys will be fighting it out for AS berths and even possibly MVPs for many years to come...

Gonblott · April 6, 2007 12:58PM

Reyes is a great player and hes STILL young.

frankhardy · April 6, 2007 1:02PM

<< Reyes is the best all-around player in the N.L PERIOD >>

I think you meant best leadoff hitter. Before we start crowning him as the best all around player, he's going to have to first hit .332, average 42 homeruns, average 126 RBI's, have an OPS of 1.045, win a Gold Glove, an MVP, and a World Series in his first 6 years. And that's just for starters.

Best leadoff hitter - without a doubt. I would love to have him on my team

Best all around player - I've got to see more than that before I say that.

Darin · April 6, 2007 1:19PM

I wouldn't say Pujols is the best all around player. Best hitter,yes. I remember seeing him play in St. Louis when they used to play him at third base sometimes. He made two or three errors in two games. They used to move him around because he was a defensive liability, he ended up at first because he was no good anywhere else. Didn't he play left field some also the first couple years?

I would say Beltran or Reyes for best all around player in NL.

mnolan · April 6, 2007 1:26PM

mets 20- cards 2
pujols .077avg 0 hr 0 rbi 1 hit
reyes 368 avg 1 hr 7 rbi 7 hits
you tell me

ctsoxfan · April 6, 2007 1:27PM

I don't know if he's the best all-around player, but he certainly is the most exciting player in the game today.

grote15 · April 6, 2007 1:31PM

I don't know if he's the best all-around player, but he certainly is the most exciting player in the game today.

Well stated. I'd agree with that.

TraderShea · April 6, 2007 2:08PM

<< I don't know if he's the best all-around player, but he certainly is the most exciting player in the game today. >>

...cough...sizemore...cough...

grote15 · April 6, 2007 2:13PM

>

...cough...sizemore...cough...

April Fool's was last week, man.

TraderShea · April 6, 2007 2:36PM

then why did he post that about Reyes today?

but come on, youre not gonna give Sizemore the love he deserves? And I know he doesnt have the SB totals of Reyes but he would have been much much closer the last couple of years if Wedge allowed it (remember one of the first things Crisp said when he left was he was going to be able to steal more in Bos) This year it is said the players will have the green light a bit more so I wouldnt be surprised to see this total go up quite a bit ~ well unless the team keeps mashing like they did the first two games making it not needed... Between the 300/375/525ish line, 30ish HR, 50ish 2B, 10ish 3B, 25ish SB and GG-worthy defense I would say Sizemore has to be given his due...

TheVon · April 6, 2007 2:40PM

I love both Sizemore and Reyes. They're both fun players to watch and they are both great players to have on your fantasy team because they produce well-rounded stats. I actually think that both of them have better than average chances at being named MVPs this year.

Morgoth · April 6, 2007 2:45PM

3 games in and people are saying that Reyes is better than Pujols?? Seriously, you wouldn't trade Reyes for Pujols?

Boopotts · April 6, 2007 2:45PM

<< I don't know if he's the best all-around player, but he certainly is the most exciting player in the game today. >>

Actually, that honor belongs to Tom Gordon.

grote15 · April 6, 2007 2:52PM

I know I'm biased, but Reyes is far better than Sizemore, IMO, not even close.

grote15 · April 6, 2007 2:54PM

3 games in and people are saying that Reyes is better than Pujols?? Seriously, you wouldn't trade Reyes for Pujols?

At his current salary, no contest, I'd take Reyes in a heartbeat.

Seriously, Puljos may have better power numbers at the plate, no argument here, but power hitting firstbasemen are much more common than a shortstop like Reyes with his skills, both in the field and at the plate, not to mention the basepaths.

TraderShea · April 6, 2007 2:57PM

<< 

<< I don't know if he's the best all-around player, but he certainly is the most exciting player in the game today. >>

Actually, that honor belongs to Tom Gordon. >>

Oh noooo, sorry but another Indian (ex now) has to be mentioned if we get to include pitchers...
BOB WICKMAN!
Now if you've seen him close a couple times you know what I mean! Nobody in the majors gets blood moving like him!!! You will be on the edge of your seat no matter which team you are rooting for! (((walk, single, ground out, walk, strikeout... 6 or 7 batters latter eventually the save)))

Volver · April 6, 2007 3:06PM

Sizemore and Reyes are two different types of leadoff hitters. I'll take either one on my team.

kylehess10 · April 6, 2007 3:10PM

He sure is. I actually just met him a couple of hours ago. A real nice guy but always seems to be busy. He was signing autographs while talking to a reporter. Talk about multi-tasking!!

TraderShea · April 6, 2007 3:15PM

<< I know I'm biased, but Reyes is far better than Sizemore, IMO, not even close. >>

huh? Far better? How do you figure???
(((and I'm not saying this because I'm bias but because I cant see how you can ever say that...)))

and remember, both are 24, both lead off and both play GG def at hard positions...
Grady: .290 BA, .375 OBP, .533 SLG, 134R, 190 H, 53 2B, 11 3B, 28 HR, 349 TB, 76 RBI, 22/6 SB (78%), 78 BB, 13 HBP, 153 SO
Reyes: .300 BA, .354 OBP, .487 SLG, 122 R, 194 H, 30 2B, 17 3B, 19 HR, 315 TB, 81 RBI, 64/17 SB (79%), 53 BB, 1 HBP, 81 SO

ok, so please point out where Reyes is that much better? The only things he has Sizemore really beat on is SO (the only knock on Sizemore) and SB ~ but the SB % is the same... Oh Jose also had 7 more 3B but I think the +23 2B/+9 HR makes up for those... Oh and Sizemore does SO because he actually takes many more pitches looking for something good to hit ~ hence the +25 BB and in turn +.21 OBP.
Oh and I saw you post the seasons stats so far for Reyes vs Pujols --- here lets add Sizemore
Reyes .308/.400/.615 1 2B, 1 HR 8 TB
Grady .429/.467/1.071 0 3 HR 15 TB

Reyes far better? I cant imagine anyone saying Reyes is better at all looking just at the stats...

That being said ~ my first post did say I think Reyes is great and that i expect him to battle for the AS & SilverSlugger nods with Rollins for many years to come with both possibly being able to pull in MVPs

grote15 · April 6, 2007 3:59PM

Trader Shea (nice surname, btw

) , I'll take my chances and just say that Reyes has more upside than Sizemore at this point in time, and leave it at that. Time will tell, of course, but Reyes has only begun to realize his game IMO and within a year or two I predict he will be the premiere player in the major leagues.

Edit: For a leadoff guy, 64 SBs to 22 SBs is a HUGE difference, and Sizemore's propensity for striking out (once every 4 ABs) is also very atypical for a successful leadoff hitter.

I'm not saying that Sizemore isn't a budding star, just that if you asked any GM in baseball if they'd trade Reyes for Sizemore straight up, they'd look at you like you were crazy.

colebear · April 6, 2007 4:10PM

I will say that Reyes is gold but at the same time Sizemore is also. I think that Sizemore has the edge just a bit though. His power numbers are a little stronger. If I had the choice of either, I would be delighted.

Even though he is not a leadoff hitter, I have to say Chase Utley is just as golden as either of those two!!!!

TraderShea · April 6, 2007 7:03PM

<< Trader Shea (nice surname, btw

) , I'll take my chances and just say that Reyes has more upside than Sizemore at this point in time, and leave it at that. Time will tell, of course, but Reyes has only begun to realize his game IMO and within a year or two I predict he will be the premiere player in the major leagues.

Edit: For a leadoff guy, 64 SBs to 22 SBs is a HUGE difference, and Sizemore's propensity for striking out (once every 4 ABs) is also very atypical for a successful leadoff hitter.

I'm not saying that Sizemore isn't a budding star, just that if you asked any GM in baseball if they'd trade Reyes for Sizemore straight up, they'd look at you like you were crazy. >>

That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. Reyes is a very solid player and because of the uniform he wears will get a ton of press for years to come, but the truth is that he is still a little bit of a question mark as far as his future production goes. Let’s not forget that this time last year he was considered a disappointment at the plate, he had not lived up to any of the hype that he came up with and his .300 or lower OBPs were a laughing stock around baseball. He has had one season where he raised his BA and OBP while showing a little more plate discipline ~ but that’s only 6 months worth of time. It’s a question as to if he will even be able to duplicate the numbers he put up last year, let alone improve on them…

You mention the Ks which yes they hurt, but not much more than any other AB and Sizemore makes a lot fewer outs than Reyes ~ as you will see below Sizemore got on base nearly 40 more times than Reyes… Besides, a leadoff hitter should be seeing pitches so the next hitters get an idea as to what they will see and getting on base no matter what; Reyes doesn’t take many pitches though and instead swings early oftentimes grounding out because of it, plus has a lower OBP. Did it work? Well, Sizemore had +12 Runs.

The SB total? Well, the fact that Sizemore ends up past first so much more often with his bat tells me that Reyes needs the SB total to make his numbers really respectable.

Sizemore 190H + 78BB + 13HBP + 4SF = 285 Times on base
to Reyes 194H + 53BB + 1HBP = 0SF = 247 Times on base
Grady 285TOB – 53 2B – 11 3B – 28 HR = 193 Times to first / 92 times past - XBHs
Reyes 247TOB – 30 2B – 17 3B – 19 HR = 181 Times to first / 66 XBH

Add the SB and CS totals to the XBH and you would see this:
Sizemore 92 XBH + 22 SB – 6 CS = 108 Times past first
J. Reyes 66 XBH + 64 SB – 17 CS = 113 Times past first

Those 42 extra SB equaled 5 more times past first base (if we assume they were all steals of 2nd) That doesn’t seem like much does it? I again have to point to the +12R and say that all those SB ended up doing nothing more than make up for other shortcomings.

No matter how you flip it Reyes wasn’t a better leadoff hitter last year and hasn’t been even close to this point in their careers. Sizemore was +38 Times on base and +35 Total Bases with the bat. He might have struck out more but he also had +25 Walks. Reyes had an unusual stat-line of 17 3B and only 30 2B meaning he doesn’t hit the ball to the gaps often and just stretches his doubles into triples when he does. 66 Extra base hits isn’t anything to run home bragging about, especially if you had the 8th highest Hit total in the NL, so the SBs are needed to bring him up to what you would expect out of a respectable LO guy ~ but leading the league in CS isn’t exactly noteworthy either is it...

Reyes was very good and will be for years but we have to be realistic here and I’m sorry but I cant see anything which can be said for Reyes being a better hitter...

frankhardy · April 6, 2007 11:13PM

<< mets 20- cards 2
pujols .077avg 0 hr 0 rbi 1 hit
reyes 368 avg 1 hr 7 rbi 7 hits
you tell me >>

Wow! I'm speechless at that comeback. You take one series and use it to say that Reyes is a better all around player than Pujols. That is genius.

mnolan · April 7, 2007 1:20AM

last years playoffs what jose was better

Volver · April 7, 2007 1:27AM

Reyes couldn't hold Pujols' jock.

Pujols is the best hitter in baseball and second is a distant second.

mnolan · April 7, 2007 1:31AM

never said he wasnt hes not the best all around player

Volver · April 7, 2007 1:55AM

I wasn't directing my comments towards anyone...just mentioning my two cents

ctsoxfan · April 7, 2007 2:41AM

<< That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >>

Grady?

Grady Sizemore??

I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management).

Volver · April 7, 2007 3:13AM

<< 

<< That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >>

Grady?

Grady Sizemore??

I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management). >>

I have also heard this mentioned relating to Sizemore, but not to Reyes. Not taking anything away from anyone, just stating what I had heard

shagrotn77 · April 7, 2007 3:25AM

Pujols is indeed the best player in the game today. There is no dispute about that among people who know the game. Reyes is an amazing player, probably top 5, but Albert is the King.

WinPitcher · April 7, 2007 3:48AM

Reyes had an unusual stat-line of 17 3B and only 30 2B meaning he doesn’t hit the ball to the gaps often and just stretches his doubles into triples when he does.

WHAT?? How can you possibly prove that?

Steve

mnolan · April 7, 2007 5:59AM

a-rod is better then pujols

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 6:32AM

<< 

<< That’s not true though man, there have been multiple GMs and Managers who have said that Grady is the best all around player in the majors. >>

Grady?

Grady Sizemore??

I find that statement a bit hard to believe - I'd love to know who exactly was crazy enough to say this (aside from Cleveland management). >>

Well, I couldn’t find the quote I was looking for unfortunately but I did find this in a USA today article:
"But Sizemore, whom Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen says is the best all-around player in the American League Central, is finding it harder these days to avoid the trappings of fame he says he would rather do without…”

so sorry to say but your own manager is one of those I was talking about... Granted he said AL-C in the interview I was able to find but has since said the AL and MLB in subsequent articles.

I cant believe you guys dont believe it though... its not like its not mentioned all the time! Quickly searching the web I found these:

"Grady Sizemore is Rob Neyer's pick for best overall player."
the fans voted in this 2/14/07 poll (71,889 votes right now) and it currently sits with Pujols 1st (25%), A-Rod 2nd (18.2%) and Sizemore 3rd (13%). Jeter was 4th (12.9) and Reyes was 5th (9.4) with Ichiro, Vlad, Crawford, Abreu, Wells, D.Wright and Bay rounding out the rest (all at 5% or less) Think about that, the others in the top 5 are all on the most talked about teams in baseball ~ for Sizemore to be that high is amazing considering he plays in a small market on a team which greatly under produced last year!
The voting page

They might not need much more than answers to those questions to win, too. This team already has the best leadoff man in baseball in Sizemore. ~ Jayson Stark 3/30/07
The article

Grady Sizemore, perhaps the most coveted player in baseball, talks in a wonderfully... ~ Jeff Passan 3/12/07
"I have more players and managers and coaches from other teams come up about him," Shapiro said. "We have arguably one of the two best hitters in the American League in Travis Hafner. One of the best offensive catchers in Victor Martinez. One of the best starters in C.C. Sabathia. And more people want to talk about Grady than any of them. He has athleticism, effort, energy, attitude, intelligence and baseball ability. Those things just don't align very often. You see some guys with a few. Grady is the coming together of all those incredible traits."
the article

Peter King, Sizemore's owner, says his intention was to take the best hitter available early on. From a pure baseball perspective, a strong argument can be made Sizemore is near the top of the list of best overall baseball players. But there is a difference between the best baseball player and the best fantasy baseball player... Sizemore might be overrated as a fantasy player, but King is so right - Sizemore is one of those players that we stop and watch when he is at bat.
the article

here, just a couple more little interesting tid-bits I found:
"He added 28 homers, 11 triples and 22 steals, making him just the second player in history with at least 50 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers and 20 steals in one season. The other: Hall of Famer Chuck Klein in 1932. ESPN sabermetrician Rob Neyer crunched the numbers and found that Sizemore's career arc most closely resembles Duke Snider -- another Hall of Famer."
and
“Grady Sizemore, Indians - The only player 23 or younger to produce more extra-base hits than Sizemore (92) did last year in the past 70 years was Pujols (95) in 2003”
and
“Raise your hand if you thought Grady Sizemore was leading all AL position players in WARP!” (WARP1: Albert Pujols 8.3, Carlos Beltran 8.1, Miguel Cabrera 7.8, Lance Berkman 6.9, Grady Sizemore 6.8, Joe Mauer 6.8, Alfonso Soriano 6.8, Derek Jeter 6.5, Mike Young 6.5, Travis Hafner 6.4 ~ WARP1 is Wins above replacement player minus Def contribution or in otherwords soley production at plate)

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 6:36AM

<< Reyes had an unusual stat-line of 17 3B and only 30 2B meaning he doesn’t hit the ball to the gaps often and just stretches his doubles into triples when he does.

WHAT?? How can you possibly prove that?

Steve >>

Well, the 2B + 3B total of 47 just doesn’t seem like that much for a guy with so much speed. I really enjoy speedy leadoff hitters who can do so much and always find a way to get the extra base ~ when I made the statement I had guys like Sizemore (64), Hanley Ramirez (57) and Jimmy Rollins (54) in mind. I might have over-spoke on it, but when you look at the totals of some of the other speedy LO hitters you will see he is much lower here then you would expect...

Ah, toss that one statement out if you like, I still find it hard to find anything pointing to Reyes having a better season last year… And like I said, I think he’s great and will be a star for years ~ I’m not trying to knock him at all ~ its just there are players who are better on an all-around scale on teams who don’t play in the NY market & don’t get the recognition they deserve. I will agree Reyes has a good chance to get a MVP nod in his career ~ but again that has a lot to do with A) NY press / media coverage

Mets & team around him C) prolific stats which only cover up a couple of short comings (ie SB and 3B totals).

There were both Leadoff hitters and SSs with better seasons then Reyes last year, and that was a non-prototypical Reyes year (breakout over history, unknown if it will be repeated). A strong case can be made for any of these young-side SSs to have had the better 06 season ~ all of whom have good years ahead of them ~ and that’s not even taking into account guys like Jeter, Tejada, etc who are towards the downside of their careers…
Rollins .277/.334/.478 / 127 R / 45 2B / 09 3B / 25 HR / 90% SB ratio 36/04 / 79 XBH
Hanley .292/.353/.480 / 119 R / 46 2B / 11 3B / 17 HR / 77% SB-R 51/15 / 74 XBH
Guillen .320/.400/.519 / 100 R / 41 2B / 05 3B / 19 HR / 69% SB-R 20/09 / 65 XBH
Young .314/.356/.459 / 093 R / 52 2B / 03 3B / 14 HR / 70% SB-R 07/03 / 69 XBH
JReyes .300/.354/.487 / 122 R / 30 2B / 17 3B / 19 HR / 79% SB-R 64/17 / 66 XBH

WinPitcher · April 7, 2007 7:30AM

Well, the 2B + 3B total of 47 just doesn’t seem like that much for a guy with so much speed. I really enjoy speedy leadoff hitters who can do so much and always find a way to get the extra base

I love how you carefully worded your reply...............

Ok I'll do the same, actually as a leadoff batter Reyes reached 2nd or 3rd base more often then Sizemore if you include SB's.

Reyes 111

Sizemore 86

Not knowing how many steals of 3rd he had i won't make a blanket statement like you surely did.

Listen I'm not debating who is better. I just thought it silly when you said he hardly hits the ball in the gaps.
That his triples were simply doubles that he stretched out.

Steve

edited typo

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 8:19AM

Ok I'll do the same, actually as a leadoff batter Reyes reached 2nd or 3rd base more often then Sizemore if you include SB's. Reyes 111 Sizemore 86

Actually I count:
Reyes 94 ~~~ (30 + 17 + 64 – 17)
Sizemore 80 ~~~ (53 + 11 + 22 – 6)
Where if you add in the HR you see:
Reyes 113
Sizemore 108
So if we are counting “times past first” we are left with those 5 for Reyes by his own doing... +42 SB = 5 extra trips past first is the bottom line…

I just thought it silly when you said he hardly hits the ball in the gaps. That his triples were simply doubles that he stretched out.

Well, his 3B are mainly Doubles which he stretches out for Triples ~ all triples are for the most part! If he didn’t have the speed he would have had to stop at 2B most of the time, hence the reason they are so hard to hit for most. But unlike some other players his 2B numbers suffer with his 3B increase which says he hits what would be a “2B+” less often as other players ~ ie he doesn’t hit the gaps as often. It’s much more likely that Reyes will make it to first then hope he makes it safely to second with a steal then for the other players I mentioned. His SB% in turn becomes so much more important because you need him to be in scoring position but each CS in essence removes a hit ~ and the fact that he had more SB attempts than anyone else speaks volumes to the green light he has in NY. Sizemore could steal a bunch more bases if given the opportunity but he is held back in Cleveland by Wedgie-Ball; but while even being held back from running 81 times like Reyes he still only had 5 fewer times to “2B+” by his own doing…

Sorry if the statement came off sounding silly but it does have some weight. With his speed you would really expect more then what he pulls in and having less 2B+3B says that he probably doesn’t hit the gaps as often as those with 64, 57 or 54. Hitting the gaps is afterall the main reason a person pulls in a double…

It was one small sentence in a rather long post of reasons why I don’t think Reyes had as strong of a season as some are trying to claim and I could have stated it better when I posted it. Sorry if you didnt like the choice of words and I agree I could have said it much better; I don’t think it takes anything away from what I said though and I cant see how that odd statement means that Reyes was a better hitter by any means. His stats were very, very strong, but it wasn’t in that “best in game” category and cases can be made for 6 other SSs having a better season, let alone all the other positions...

mnolan · April 7, 2007 8:43AM

shea is hard to have 3B

grote15 · April 7, 2007 8:46AM

150+ K's and only 22 SBs are hardly impressive stats for a premiere leadoff hitter. Sizemore needs work in those areas, which are significant stats if you're going to be a top-notch leadoff guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up batting lower in the lineup eventually.

Edit: It's also no coincidence that in fantasy baseball, where overall stats mean everything, that Reyes is the overall #2 ranked Yahoo fantasy baseball player behind Albert Puljos, while Grady Sizemore is ranked #25.

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 11:31AM

<< 150+ K's and only 22 SBs are hardly impressive stats for a premiere leadoff hitter. Sizemore needs work in those areas, which are significant stats if you're going to be a top-notch leadoff guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up batting lower in the lineup eventually.

Edit: It's also no coincidence that in fantasy baseball, where overall stats mean everything, that Reyes is the overall #2 ranked Yahoo fantasy baseball player behind Albert Puljos, while Grady Sizemore is ranked #25. >>

Ok, this has gotten just nuts ~ why is everyone trying to make “it Reyes is a better LO hitter” to somehow prove that “Reyes is the best all around player in the game” by pointing to Sizemore’s Ks and lack of huge SB #s supposedly hurting him in the 1spot? It doesn’t even mean he is a lesser LO guy ~ its pointing to two minor stats in a sea of important ones where Reyes falls far short of others in the game!

But you really want to argue “better LO hitter?” to somehow prove your point? Ok here goes… What you want from your leadoff hitter:

A) Get on base! Sizemore wins that at .375 vs .354!

Get past first! Sizemore does it much more with his bat (94 vs 66) and Reyes does take a slight 5 time lead when you add in SB but stealing is taking a big chance and it took Reyes 81 tries to take the lead vs Grady only having to take that chance 28 times. Would you really want a guy who gets on first and might make it to second without getting caught over a guy who just hits a 2B or more in the first place? Reyes was tied for 41st in the majors in the XBH department which doesn’t say to me “elite with the bat”, Grady leading all of baseball on the other hand…

C) See pitches! You want your leadoff guy to see a bunch of pitches so the guys batting behind him know what the pitcher has in terms of stuff. Out of all the guys on the team you want your #1 to be the most patient. Sizemore was tied for 31st in the Majors at 4.01 P/PA ~ good enough for 9th of #1s with at least 400PA. Reyes was 123 of 160 in the majors with 3.60 and 23/25 for LOs with 400PA beating only Juan Pierre and Randy Winn. Hence the reason Sizemore Ks more ~ he takes more pitches! He doesn’t just go up there hacking hoping he puts the ball into play. Would I like his Ks to be lower, sure! But it’s the only knock on him period and it’s not even that bad! Shoot, Sizemore ranked 70th in baseball as far as BB/K goes and Reyes wasn’t “that much better” coming in at 54th…

D) Score Runs! Sizemore wins here as well ~ 134 to 122.

E) Create runs! Sizemore ended up having a 7.56 RC27 mark last year ~ Reyes 6.60

F) Total value! Sizemore had a VORP ranking of 69.1 last year compared to Reyes with 58.8…

Jose is good, but he’s not even close to “the best all around player in baseball”. Reyes with the bat probably ranks 5th among SSs behind Jeter, Tejada, Guillen and Young with Ramirez, Reyes and Rollins all being very close to eachother battling it for the 5th spot. All of those (with the exception of Young) are also + defenders so it cant be said Jose is better because of that either. Shoot, Reyes is probably only the 3rd best hitter on his team (behind Beltran and Wright) and if you expand it to include all of NY he dropps even further as A-Rod and Jeter jump to the top. As far as over-all hitters alone in the game… I can name so many that I would rather build a team around than Reyes its not even funny (Pujols, A-Rod, Howard, Beltran, Sizemore, Mauer, Manny, Utley, Vlad, Miguel Cabrera, Hafner, Ortiz, etc, etc, etc) and a good chunk of them would be considered +Def. Now granted not all of them would be 24YO like Reyes, but most of them also have more then 1 good season under their belt and all have at least 5 more years of expected plus numbers! Because I can’t expect to keep a player more than 5 years in this age of high-priced free-agents, any of them would be safe bets to build your offense around.

The fact is Reyes is a great up and coming player who ideally will be putting up solid numbers for years to come. He isn’t the best all around player in the game by any means though ~ shoot (as much as I cant stand them both) there are two other SSs in the same city who are better “all around players” then him (although A-Rod of course is now playing 3rd because of Jeter). I cant stand him but A-Rod is the best “all around” player today with guys like Sizemore or Beltran or even Pujols (despite Def + Speed differences ~ his bat is that much father ahead it makes up for a lot of it) 2nd depending on who you talk to. Just because Reyes had a nice opening series and that flashy 2 triples line flashed across ESPN every 5 minutes doesn’t make him the best by any means!

So that’s it, I’m taking Sizemore out of the conversation since I’ve more than shown he is superior (shoot, 71,000+ fans even voted as much in that poll I linked) to Reyes anyway which way you turn it. Instead I will let you guys try to prove how Reyes is better than A-Rod since you cant admit to the facts vs Sizemore...

P.S. Please don’t tell me you seriously brought up fantasy rankings to prove a real-game point! Sadly that kind of thing makes me question your knowledge of baseball ~ real games are won with more than 5 stats...

grote15 · April 7, 2007 11:36AM

Wow, that's a lot of typing there, TraderShea, but the fact remains that Reyes is a better, all around, more talented player and leadoff hitter than Grady Sizemore, and most knowledgeable baseball fans would agree with that assessment, IMO. Also, YOU were the one who brought Sizemore into this discussion, so I'm not sure why you're bellyaching about the comparison now. When I started this thread, I merely stated, with valid reason, that Reyes has developed into one heckuva ballplayer and that I wouldn't be surprised if he vies for the NL MVP Award this season.

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 11:36AM

<< shea is hard to have 3B >>

yeah I know, I said it is ~ you have to have speed to get them with consistency.

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 12:14PM

<< Wow, that's a lot of typing there, TraderShea, but the fact remains that Reyes is a better, all around, more talented player and leadoff hitter than Grady Sizemore, and most knowledgeable baseball fans would agree with that assessment, IMO. Also, YOU were the one who brought Sizemore into this discussion, so I'm not sure why you're bellyaching about the comparison now. When I started this thread, I merely stated, with valid reason, that Reyes has developed into one heckuva ballplayer and that I wouldn't be surprised if he vies for the NL MVP Award this season. >>

Well... "one heck of a ball player" and "best all around player" are two drastically different things

... oh and yes Sizemore is far and away superior to Reyes in every way possible except Ks. I will also give you the SB totals as well but the truth is Jose isn’t that great of a base runner ~ he just runs a ton (hence the same CS%). If you want to think Reyes is somehow better, fine ~ doesn’t matter to me ~ but your fantasy points and bias because of his one respectable season after so many disappointing ones doesn’t prove a single thing ~ things like PECOTA ranking Sizemore far ahead of Reyes does as they are experts who do it for a living... I'm not bellyaching at all; I don’t care if you know nothing about the game, but if you want to have a serious conversation you can’t ignore the facts (which is all you have done) and you need to present at least some yourself. You have what facts to back your point again? Thought so...

oh… BTW do 71,935 votes count towards “most knowledgeable baseball fans”? Here’s a screenshot incase you missed it…

(as posted on EPSN SportsNation)

So please, either supply some ‘real’ points that could be made for Reyes being the best player in the game or just stop, running around not saying anything is just showing ignorance...

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 12:16PM

Infact just answer me this...

How is Reyes even better than Carlos Beltran?

grote15 · April 7, 2007 1:04PM

TraderShea,

You criticize me for using fantasy baseball rankings (which are far more objective), but use an ESPN pool of the general public (far more subjective) to illustrate your ill-advised argument that Sizemore is a better all around player than Reyes? Please! As I stated in an earlier post, time will tell, but I'd take Reyes over Sizemore any day, and most posters here seem to agree with that, and for good reason.

Edit: And show me where I said anywhere in this post that I said that Reyes was the best all around player in baseball? Huh? You can't because I never stated as such, but then again the facts don't matter to you. In fact, I said in a previous post that I agreed with ctsoxfan who stated that he wasn't sure if Reyes is the best all around player in baseball, but that he was the most EXCITING to watch. Do you understand the difference? Get your facts straight before posting, man.

grote15 · April 7, 2007 2:22PM

... oh and yes Sizemore is far and away superior to Reyes in every way possible except Ks. I will also give you the SB totals as well but the truth is Jose isn’t that great of a base runner ~

LOL, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Those statements are just downright foolish.

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 2:51PM

Dude,

I found articles which state that Peter King & Rob Neyer call Sizemore the best all-around player in baseball…
I found an article in which Jayson Stark says he is the best leadoff hitter in baseball…
I found an article in which Jeff Passan says he is the most coveted player in baseball…
I gave you a poll which says that nearly 72,000 people ‘like us’ think Sizemore is better than Reyes…
I gave you PECOTA ratings which ranked Grady as having a +10 VORP advantage over Reyes…
I gave you the stat-lines where Reyes is inferior in almost all but 2 you choose to harp on (one of which has almost no bearing on anything)…
I gave you articles that state Grady is “just the second player in history with at least 50 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers and 20 steals in one season”…
I gave you and article which said Sizemore is “the only player 23 or younger to produce more extra-base hits than Sizemore (92) did last year in the past 70 years was Pujols (95) in 2003”…
I listed 5 things you want to stress from a leadoff hitter and explained why Sizemore is superior in each…

You said “he is far better IMO” and that no GM would ever dream of taking Sizemore over Reyes while spitting Fantasy rankings and harping on a SO total (to which Reyes is hardly great at avoiding himself)

And maybe you didn’t say specifically that you thought he was the best over-all player in the game but you did say the following line and since so many consider Sizemore to be one of, if not the best, then you imply that Reyes is ‘far Better than what is argued the best in the game’
“I know I'm biased, but Reyes is far better than Sizemore, IMO, not even close.” ~ remember that?

You might as well go back to watching ESPN for the next player of the weeks jock to ride, until you can give anything resembling proof to back up your claim you look like nothing more than a 3yo screaming for attention…

Oh and find a person on this thread who said they agreed Reyes is better! Just one, go ahead… But why would I expect you to answer ~ you haven’t answered one question yet and instead just run around in circles saying Reyes is better with absolutely nothing given to back it up… well nothing that makes any sense at least…
So knowing you would again ignore the direct question I asked, I did it for you; the closest you can come to finding someone who agrees with you on here is this “I would say Beltran or Reyes for best all around player in NL.” ~ that’s hardly anyone saying Reyes is better than Sizemore! I did see one or two people agreeing with me though

Ya lost… why not just admit it and let it go? Why keep grabbing for straws trying to prove something you have absolutely no facts to back up? I brought up Sizemore and you told me in essence I was a joke for doing so, well I gave plenty of stats, quotes, opinions and facts to back me up ~ why cant you just be a man and say “alright, I didn’t give Grady the credit he deserves and his numbers are superior?”. But why in the world would I expect this from a person who implied Reyes is better than Pujols…

TraderShea · April 7, 2007 2:53PM

<< ... oh and yes Sizemore is far and away superior to Reyes in every way possible except Ks. I will also give you the SB totals as well but the truth is Jose isn’t that great of a base runner ~

LOL, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you? Those statements are just downright foolish. >>

Nitpick all you want, you still havent given one grain of evidence to show Reyes is the better player...

... Oh well except for your fantasy ranking

grote15 · April 7, 2007 3:09PM

... oh and yes Sizemore is far and away superior to Reyes in every way possible except Ks. I will also give you the SB totals as well but the truth is Jose isn’t that great of a base runner

And you say I'm the one grasping at straws, with a ridiculous statement like the one you made above? You can harp all you want, but you haven't convinced me in the least bit that Sizemore is "far and away superior" to Reyes. Again, I reiterate, reread my initial posts before spewing your nonsense.

And BTW,

doesn't make your opinion any more valid, just so you know.

Boopotts · April 7, 2007 3:16PM

<< ... oh and yes Sizemore is far and away superior to Reyes in every way possible except Ks. I will also give you the SB totals as well but the truth is Jose isn’t that great of a base runner

And you say I'm the one grasping at straws, with a ridiculous statement like the one you made above? You can harp all you want, but you haven't convinced me in the least bit that Sizemore is "far and away superior" to Reyes. Again, I reiterate, reread my initial posts before spewing your nonsense.

And BTW,

doesn't make your opinion any more valid, just so you know. >>

I think it would be interesting to hear your case for why Reyes is clearly superior to Sizemore.

Jose Reyes...

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