A protocol change by PCGS for Zerbe Proof designation?

coindeuce · March 27, 2007 8:59AM

A quick look at the CoinUniverse link to CoinFacts(from the link on the PCGS homepage) would indicate that PCGS acknowledges the possible existence of the Zerbe Proofs of 1921 and 1921-S. The PCGS population reports show that some have been graded and designated as such. However mysteriously though, with no mention in any relevant announcement, the 1921-P and 1921-S Morgans with the die markers and surface characteristics of the Zerbe die struck coins are no longer being accepted by PCGS for grading and designation as Proofs, but rather as "Special Strike" or as Mint State examples. Any one here have a clue as to this about face?
P.S.: I would have posed this question in the Q & A, but it seems that most here agree that many questions there are not being addressed. What's up with this?

RobJoyce1921dVAMguy · March 27, 2007 9:53AM

Hmmm. I expect this happened because other grading services have slabbed "Zerbe Dies" and sold them at great profits pointing to the PCGS price guide. The Zerbe dies are identifiable but these coins attributed as Zerbe dies are not the presentation pieces made for Zerbe, just ones made during production with the same dies.

Purely a guess, but that's where my money is.

Rob

MrEureka · March 27, 2007 9:56AM

I expect this happened because other grading services have slabbed "Zerbe Dies" and sold them at great profits pointing to the PCGS price guide. The Zerbe dies are identifiable but these coins attributed as Zerbe dies are not the presentation pieces made for Zerbe, just ones made during production with the same dies.

How would this change protect anyone from that risk?

coindeuce · March 27, 2007 9:58AM

<< <i>Hmmm. I expect this happened because other grading services have slabbed "Zerbe Dies" and sold them at great profits pointing to the PCGS price guide. The Zerbe dies are identifiable but these coins attributed as Zerbe dies are not the presentation pieces made for Zerbe, just ones made during production with the same dies.

Purely a guess, but that's where my money is.

Rob >>

And how would you identify the Heritage auction lot from the link in the OP? Would you accept that designation if you were the owner of the coin? If so, then why?

RWB · March 27, 2007 10:42AM

Curator of the mint collection, T. Louis Comparette, mentions two different specially-struck 1921 Morgans. The first were made in Comparette's presence from new dies on a production press and individually handled to avoid marring. Almost exactly a year later, Comparette mentions "semi-proofs" struck on a medal press that he called "not true proofs" but not inferior. Examples of both were placed in the Connecticut State Library collection in 1921 and 1922 respectively.

Historical Note:
By the end of the PPIE in 1915, Farran Zerbe was not on good terms with mint or treasury officials. He had royally messed up sale of commemorative coins, medals and engravings. This caused cost overruns, wasted materials and storage problems for the SF Mint and treasury dept. The supervisor of the treasury exhibits wrote:

"This man, Zerbe, is an unsatisfactory chap to deal with. He gives you the feeling that he suspects you will not give him a square deal, and at the same time you have the feeling that he wants to 'put something over’ on you."

Would you, as a mint official, do anything special for Zerbe? Why?

RWB · March 28, 2007 11:29AM

I have here, in my hand, a crisp new five dollar bill of the rare "right-side-up" Lincoln variety, with a unique serial number and a plain edge! There is only one of these and it can be yours – free!!

It goes to the first (or maybe second) board member who presents an original document from 1921 in evidence that any silver dollars were struck for Farran Zerbe, Frank Sinatra or Harry Houdini.

Who will pick up the gauntlet!!!

RWB · March 30, 2007 4:31AM

Ladies and Gentlemen...any evidence at all? The spirits of Farran, Frank and Harry await, and this $5 if burning a hole in my pocket.

Regulated · March 30, 2007 5:05AM

Evidence of which issue? And what would constitute evidence?

mrearlygold · March 30, 2007 5:12AM

Does this mean that all branch mint proofs will also see a new designation by PCGS?

What is NGC's position in this? Any change?

MrEureka · March 30, 2007 5:35AM

Curator of the mint collection, T. Louis Comparette, mentions two different specially-struck 1921 Morgans. The first were made in Comparette's presence from new dies on a production press and individually handled to avoid marring. Almost exactly a year later, Comparette mentions "semi-proofs" struck on a medal press that he called "not true proofs" but not inferior. Examples of both were placed in the Connecticut State Library collection in 1921 and 1922 respectively.

Has anyone here gone to the CSL to inspect these two coins?

It goes to the first (or maybe second) board member who presents an original document from 1921 in evidence that any silver dollars were struck for Farran Zerbe, Frank Sinatra or Harry Houdini.

I wish Chapman had been included in that list. I could use the $5.

messydesk · March 30, 2007 6:26AM

<< <i>I expect this happened because other grading services have slabbed "Zerbe Dies" and sold them at great profits pointing to the PCGS price guide. The Zerbe dies are identifiable but these coins attributed as Zerbe dies are not the presentation pieces made for Zerbe, just ones made during production with the same dies.

How would this change protect anyone from that risk? >>

I assume it's really only meant to protect PCGS from the risk of calling them proofs when (a) they aren't conclusively proofs, (b) ordinary-looking business strike coins have been identified as having identical die markers, and are refered to as VAM 47, and (c) coins containing some, but not all, of the markers have been called "Zerbe die" coins. Moreover, since the coins weren't made until late in the year, they're ineligible for "First Strike™" designation.

Wolf359 · March 30, 2007 6:39AM

That and there's a lack of proof in the old Farren story.

Would you, as a mint official, do anything special for Zerbe? Why?

Farren wasn't a nice guy. Narcissist personalities can get people to do some amazing things.

A protocol change by PCGS for Zerbe Proof designation?

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