Some of us may want to read Warren Mills' sobering Baltimore Show report...
1907Quarter
Posts: 2,770
musings He is after all this month's featured dealer at the top of the CU page, and a whole lot more!
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<< <i>musings He is after all this month's featured dealer at the top of the CU page, and a whole lot more! >>
Interesting article and perspective. A little harsh but a wake up call.
Is C Brown still with NHRC's. He used to be a PCGS grader.
Coin Rarities Online
What if the new collectors coming into the market that like slabbed, cleaned, white coins don't leave? What if collectors that like market acceptable white coins are a permanent part of the collector market now and remain even if the TPGs disappear?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Who is this Warren Mills guy? >>
Who ever he is, he knows what he's talking about.
What he's said is true, but for the collectors with patience and a willingness to work with a few "good guys", the coins can be found.
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
<< <i>Who is this Warren Mills guy? >>
He's part of RCNH, the dealer we have to thank for keeping these boards alive!
When you purchase from RCNH you are getting coins that have been approved by one of the best eyes for grading in the business, Warren. They are also about educating the collector, big time, with copies of the Grey Sheet, The Rosen Report and other important extras at no extra cost. They want you to truly understand and appreciate their offerings and your purchases.
They are on my very short list of trusted dealers with which I don't mind paying a premium for quality, originality, and expertise.
Best regards,
Meet my first little guy, Benjamin. Born 4/8/2007
Pic taken at 2.5 years of age.
Sorry that I have to scream for an answer, but there are probably many readers that really need to have this explained.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>WHY DOES ORIGINALITY MATTER?
Sorry that I have to scream for an answer, but there are probably many readers that really need to have this explained. >>
If we have to explain it to you, then you wouldn't understand.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>WHY DOES ORIGINALITY MATTER?
Sorry that I have to scream for an answer, but there are probably many readers that really need to have this explained. >>
Stop shouting and start a separate thread.
I just changed my sig line. Hopefully, Warren will approve.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Stop shouting and start a separate thread.
I just changed my sig line. Hopefully, Warren will approve. >>
Great sig line. For some more pop, you should use the term "violating" instead of abusing.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>WHY DOES ORIGINALITY MATTER?
Sorry that I have to scream for an answer, but there are probably many readers that really need to have this explained. >>
If we have to explain it to you, then you wouldn't understand. >>
If that's really the case then many new collectors that go for white coins will continue going for white coins that will lead to doctors and TPGs creating and slabbing more white coins.
Yes Andy, Warren will approve....and you know it
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
<< <i>It doesn't bode well for me. I like my circulated Morgans with their original patina, not cleaned or dipped. I have noticed they are getting harder and harder to find in that state. >>
This could simply be because we have been in a bull coin market and many of the better pieces are in collections now. When the market comes around to make it attractive to sell these again, a lot of them may come on the market again.
<< <i>When a coin is cleaned or doctored, it no longer has the magical ability to take me on a mental journey to its time of issue. Instead, all I get is a vision of some jerk abusing the coin in his basement laboratory. >>
Fortunately, folks like Mr. Mills, Mike Printz, and others on this board are spreading the gospel about originality, so it may not be too late for a good portion of our coins. I forsee "originality" as the next collecting "fad" but hopefully this "fad" will stick.
Of course, this will spur coin doctors to cook up "AS" (artificial skin)
-The new dealers at the show added nothing in way of original coins [is that because they don't know what one looks like?];
-Most of the knowledgeable and experienced dealers don't bother to look for original coins because the collecting public is too stupid or lazy to know the difference;
-Most of the knowledgeable and experienced dealers therefore dip away;
- By the way, PCGS doesn't know how to grade anyway;
-Just another reminder, the collecting public is stupid.
Sorry if I don't share the sentiment.
Not looking to start an argument here, but I think your summary of Warren's comments are a bit too summarized and narrowed down to fit your post rather than summarized to indicate what he actually said. I, and I don't think the others, gleaned exactly what you stated as a summary from his comments.
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Dip and ship
Shake and bake
Tone to order
Upgrade till overkill
Conserve, enhance and romance
with hyperbola.
Camelot
I have a few cleaned coins, one a gift others an early mistake. However, even if it is cleaned, I love my 1829 Half Cent. Why should it be a parriah in the marketplace for something done 50 to 100 years ago? Why cant it just be a reasonably nice brown coin that was cleaned and is now an F or VG instead of VF?
It is undeniably cleaned from close up, but viewed in a Dansco from arms length it just appears to be a nice old coin. Nothing special or valuable except that it is 178 years old and it appeals to me.
I refuse to be a coin snob who looks down upon a coin for something that was done long ago. It is what it is, but why cast it out? Am I just too poor to afford all those MS64 original coins, perhaps. To me this makes collecting more elitist than it should be.
We cant all dress in Armani, some of us wear patched cords.
Originality matters so a dealer can sell you an original coin at a premium, yet buy it back at a discount because it's not original.
<< <i>Ronyhaski,
Not looking to start an argument here, but I think your summary of Warren's comments are a bit too summarized and narrowed down to fit your post rather than summarized to indicate what he actually said. I, and I don't think the others, gleaned exactly what you stated as a summary from his comments. >>
It all depends on one's perspective.
Do you pay more for the original coin than what it would bring dipped?
The grading services often bump the grade after a coin gets the original haze or brown toning dipped off. When the grade gets bumped the price gets bumped. Customers often prefer the shiny, blast white, bright coins and pay more for them than original coins. Combine those two factors and original coins will continue to be dipped. The only thing that might possibly stop that is if people are willing to pay MS 66 prices for original coins in MS 65 holders...
<< <i><<Call it quaint, but I prefer originality and I am exclusively buying original coins.>>
Do you pay more for the original coin than what it would bring dipped?
The grading services often bump the grade after a coin gets the original haze or brown toning dipped off. When the grade gets bumped the price gets bumped. Customers often prefer the shiny, blast white, bright coins and pay more for them than original coins. Combine those two factors and original coins will continue to be dipped. The only thing that might possibly stop that is if people are willing to pay MS 66 prices for original coins in MS 65 holders... >>
Interesting question. I purchase coins at the going rate, and do not feel as though I pay an excessive premium for originality. They might be a little higher, but nothing significant.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
When a dealer with dollar signs in their eyes sees an original coin that might upgrade after dipping he will dip it and try it. Perhaps when enough original coins are removed from the market they might bring enough of a premium to stop the dipping. Of course that might (as Keets suggests in anther thread) encourage coin doctors to produce Artificially Original coins.
<< <i><<Interesting question. I purchase coins at the going rate, and do not feel as though I pay an excessive premium for originality. They might be a little higher, but nothing significant. >>
When a dealer with dollar signs in their eyes sees an original coin that might upgrade after dipping he will dip it and try it. Perhaps when enough original coins are removed from the market they might bring enough of a premium to stop the dipping. Of course that might (as Keets suggests in anther thread) encourage coin doctors to produce Artificially Original coins.
That begs the question of why would TPG upgrade a coin because it was dipped. Has this practice of dipping met with that much success as to upgrades at TPG's in the past?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
when the first big wave of Artificial Toning started to be the topic of discussion here and elsewhere, the unheeded warning about the importance of knowing a coin's history was spoken by some members. it took quite a few years and quite a bit of detective work to make that a part of the collecting community's mentality when looking at coins and trying to wade through the doctored crap. i assume the same process will now be undertaken and perhaps the preconception of what is "original" will be rethought. many, many, many collectors still don't understand that the overwhelming majority of pre-1900 coins have had something done to them and will eagerly take the word of the seller that something is "original" just because it has the look that conforms to the preconception. can anyone say crusty???
perhaps Provenance is the next big wave of what a legitimate grading service can offer a collector, a detailed history of where a coin came from if provable. would you pay $20 for that added to your $2500 coin if it was available??
Nice idea but there's no way to determine the true history of all the coins. Sure you can do it with the big ticket and truly rare items that show up at auction (but that history is not the entire history anyway) or have exceptional provenance, but how are you, or the TPG's, going to determine the history of an 1857 flying eagle in MS64 let's say...original or not? I just don't think this is the answer. Buying what you like and what appeals to you and being as educated as possible are the answers I see....for now.
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
Yes. The practice of dipping sometimes results in a bump in grade. Many people here have done it successfully and posted their results here. There are many before and after threads. It happens often enough that some people make a business of it.
The other argument (that many customers pay more for dipped coins) is my personal experience supported by anecdotal evidence.
<< <i><<That begs the question of why would TPG upgrade a coin because it was dipped. Has this practice of dipping met with that much success as to upgrades at TPG's in the past?>>
Yes. The practice of dipping sometimes results in a bump in grade. Many people here have done it successfully and posted their results here. There are many before and after threads. It happens often enough that some people make a business of it.
The other argument (that many customers pay more for dipped coins) is my personal experience supported by anecdotal evidence. >>
[Seems a shame because I like originality but the market bears what the market bears, even if coin purists who like originality don't paticipate.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>That begs the question of why would TPG upgrade a coin because it was dipped. Has this practice of dipping met with that much success as to upgrades at TPG's in the past? >>
It met with "success" in the case of the coin featured in the thread linked below. From a pre-dip 65 to post-dip 66.
Link of dip upgrade
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
PS - On a side note, another dealer that I do business with, Laura at Legend, put out a Hot Topics Newsletter in January urging her clients to buy only completely original coins that have not been messed with and warned of dipped coin gradeflation. It seems like all of the GREAT dealers like RCNH and Legend are giving their clients sound advice.
designset
Treasury Seals Type Set
That would leave about 4 coins available for everyone to fight over. If you only knew how many coins have been played with and are in all varieties of holders you would never buy another coin again.
While that 50c you posted is nice, I certainly hope you dont think that it is completely original.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
It is interesting how the market environement has changed in the last few years. Color was all the rage for a while...wild crazy color as long as it was in a holder. Much truly original choice material was only appreciated by a select few and was quickly gobbled up. The registry helped fuel the simmering coals of gradeflation since there was money to be made by the dip and strip that was rewarded by the services...especially NGC. Plastic buying was in its heyday.
Now move ahead to a more mature market...there is still the deadly sins discussed above occuring, but less now that the services have tightened up and that there is a noticeable shortage in the amount of original coins available. Many have been saying all along that the services were the only ones that could stem the tide of conservation and destruction....and that is proving to be true.
Here is a coin that Warren used to own. One of my absolute favorites and unquestionably original.
siliconvalleycoins.com