<< <i>OK - so I'm learning... and I'm not sure I like what I'm learning. You guys are saying “persistence pays-off.” It seems coin grading is akin to gymnastics judging. And... like the sport of Boxing - maybe the easiest to “fix”.
So - a coin I have graded 65 is worth x-dollars, but graded 66 is 10x-dollars. This means if I could somehow “persuade” a PSGS grader to go “one-up” – I now have a coin worth 10x what I bought it for – just because of the “grade.” Same exact coin. >>
Darth5oh - Your catching on. It's called "playing the game".
<< <i>OK - so I'm learning... and I'm not sure I like what I'm learning. You guys are saying “persistence pays-off.” It seems coin grading is akin to gymnastics judging. And... like the sport of Boxing - maybe the easiest to “fix”.
So - a coin I have graded 65 is worth x-dollars, but graded 66 is 10x-dollars. This means if I could somehow “persuade” a PSGS grader to go “one-up” – I now have a coin worth 10x what I bought it for – just because of the “grade.” Same exact coin.
Correct me if I’m wrong… >>
Darth5OH, This is why there are lots of crackouts going on. PARTICULARLY where there is a large jump in prices between one grade (or condition in the case of cameo/deep cameo) and another. That is also why there is a lot of overgraded cr#p in holders. If you've ever heard of the Peter Principle a person is promoted to his/her level of incompetence. It works for coins in that some coins are overgraded to the level that no one in their right mind would believe the grade on the slab, so they don't buy the coin. This also throws the population report numbers out of whack.
Ziggy29, some dates for cameo/deep cameo in the 1950-70 era are actually pretty well known for having distinctive die breaks. Probably the most obvious date to me is 1956. It is one of the common date Franklins and can have mind-boggling frost, yet one of Ben's curls will oftentimes have completely brilliant patches in amongst this caked frost. This does not affect the deep cameo status of the coin.
Darth5oh, since there are no hard-and-fast rules which define grades, there is always a measure of subjectiveness to it.
Note Russ' answer to my earlier question - he knew it would eventually be designated DCAM, and that was based on his knowledge of the series and how they have been graded (technically, CAM/DCAM is a separate issue from the numerical grade, but anyway...). I believe 20% of coins are "liners" - coins which could go a point either way. Sometimes you have to submit the coin more than once, for numerical grade and/or for the designation like CAM, DCAM, Full Bell Lines (for Franklins), etc.
I have to emphasize you have to know the coins. A coin which is a solid 65 will always (well, practically always) come back 65. But a coin which is nicer than a 65 but not as nice as a typical 66 might get graded 66 - maybe the first time, maybe the fifth time. And the chances of getting that 66 could vary depending on whether the value jump is small or large. Remember, the grading service is guaranteeing the grade. If they overgrade a coin by a point, and that point is worth $10,000, that is a large potential liability. If the point is worth $100, a lot less potential for having to buy the coin back.
It's been said that it's not enough to know how to grade - you have to know how the grading service grades. Russ knows Kennedys and how they are graded.
And let me recommend this great post from Supercoin which really sheds some light on your question.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
So, any chance it makes it into a 66DCAM holder? It's already been in a 66 holder, you have the designation you want (it deserves), all it needs now is a technical regrade and boom, huge $$$!! I didn't look it up, but the pop may be zero for a 66dcam, so maybe it won't
Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. Will’sProoflikes
<< <i>So, any chance it makes it into a 66DCAM holder? >>
Nope. From a technical standpoint, it's a solid MS65. The only reason it was briefly in an MS66CAM holder is because it got a contrast bump rather then the DCAM designation. I have quite a number of coins that have been through this scenario. For example, one of my MS66DCAM Birthmark Dies was purchased as an MS67CAM. From day one, I graded it MS66DCAM. Took three trips, but it's now in the correct holder.
<< <i>Does the plastic really help in this case? Does anyone pay more than $10.00 for any Kennedy half dollar? What could you realistically get for it from a knowlegeble buyer? >>
Russ is so good at determining the grades of his silver short set Kennedies that his opinion of the grade is in actuality and in reality the definitive grade for the coin in question.
The fact that graders at TPG's take 2, 3, or more times to finally figure things out and assign the correct "Russ Grade (TM)" to the coin must be frustrating for Russ. I guess one will just have to put up with the knowledge deficiencies of others when one is the "Top Dog", the "Definitive Source" and/or the "Guru" in one's chosen field of specialization.
Maybe Russ should put together a silver short set "Grading Set", put pics of same on line, and allow all TPG's access to the pics to help them with their grading of these coins.
<< <i>Russ is so good at determining the grades of his silver short set Kennedies that his opinion of the grade is in actuality and in reality the definitive grade for the coin in question.
The fact that graders at TPG's take 2, 3, or more times to finally figure things out and assign the correct "Russ Grade (TM)" to the coin must be frustrating for Russ. I guess one will just have to put up with the knowledge deficiencies of others when one is the "Top Dog", the "Definitive Source" and/or the "Guru" in one's chosen field of specialization.
Maybe Russ should put together a silver short set "Grading Set", put pics of same on line, and allow all TPG's access to the pics to help them with their grading of these coins. >>
Russ loves supporting PCGS with multiple submissions...
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
<< <i>Russ is so good at determining the grades of his silver short set Kennedies that his opinion of the grade is in actuality and in reality the definitive grade for the coin in question.
The fact that graders at TPG's take 2, 3, or more times to finally figure things out and assign the correct "Russ Grade (TM)" to the coin must be frustrating for Russ. I guess one will just have to put up with the knowledge deficiencies of others when one is the "Top Dog", the "Definitive Source" and/or the "Guru" in one's chosen field of specialization.
Maybe Russ should put together a silver short set "Grading Set", put pics of same on line, and allow all TPG's access to the pics to help them with their grading of these coins. >>
<< <i>Does the plastic really help in this case? Does anyone pay more than $10.00 for any Kennedy half dollar? What could you realistically get for it from a knowlegeble buyer? >>
Plastic makes all the difference >>
To whom? The buyer? The seller? Or both simultaneously?
This goes back to my question about when does one decide to break out silver sets and send them in to be graded? Especially if you're thinking decades down the road...?
Comments
<< <i>OK - so I'm learning... and I'm not sure I like what I'm learning. You guys are saying “persistence pays-off.” It seems coin grading is akin to gymnastics judging. And... like the sport of Boxing - maybe the easiest to “fix”.
So - a coin I have graded 65 is worth x-dollars, but graded 66 is 10x-dollars. This means if I could somehow “persuade” a PSGS grader to go “one-up” – I now have a coin worth 10x what I bought it for – just because of the “grade.” Same exact coin. >>
Darth5oh - Your catching on. It's called "playing the game".
<< <i>OK - so I'm learning... and I'm not sure I like what I'm learning. You guys are saying “persistence pays-off.” It seems coin grading is akin to gymnastics judging. And... like the sport of Boxing - maybe the easiest to “fix”.
So - a coin I have graded 65 is worth x-dollars, but graded 66 is 10x-dollars. This means if I could somehow “persuade” a PSGS grader to go “one-up” – I now have a coin worth 10x what I bought it for – just because of the “grade.” Same exact coin.
Correct me if I’m wrong… >>
Darth5OH, This is why there are lots of crackouts going on. PARTICULARLY where there is a large jump in prices between one grade (or condition in the case of cameo/deep cameo) and another. That is also why there is a lot of overgraded cr#p in holders. If you've ever heard of the Peter Principle a person is promoted to his/her level of incompetence. It works for coins in that some coins are overgraded to the level that no one in their right mind would believe the grade on the slab, so they don't buy the coin. This also throws the population report numbers out of whack.
Ziggy29, some dates for cameo/deep cameo in the 1950-70 era are actually pretty well known for having distinctive die breaks. Probably the most obvious date to me is 1956. It is one of the common date Franklins and can have mind-boggling frost, yet one of Ben's curls will oftentimes have completely brilliant patches in amongst this caked frost. This does not affect the deep cameo status of the coin.
U.S. Type Set
Note Russ' answer to my earlier question - he knew it would eventually be designated DCAM, and that was based on his knowledge of the series and how they have been graded (technically, CAM/DCAM is a separate issue from the numerical grade, but anyway...). I believe 20% of coins are "liners" - coins which could go a point either way. Sometimes you have to submit the coin more than once, for numerical grade and/or for the designation like CAM, DCAM, Full Bell Lines (for Franklins), etc.
I have to emphasize you have to know the coins. A coin which is a solid 65 will always (well, practically always) come back 65. But a coin which is nicer than a 65 but not as nice as a typical 66 might get graded 66 - maybe the first time, maybe the fifth time. And the chances of getting that 66 could vary depending on whether the value jump is small or large. Remember, the grading service is guaranteeing the grade. If they overgrade a coin by a point, and that point is worth $10,000, that is a large potential liability. If the point is worth $100, a lot less potential for having to buy the coin back.
It's been said that it's not enough to know how to grade - you have to know how the grading service grades. Russ knows Kennedys and how they are graded.
And let me recommend this great post from Supercoin which really sheds some light on your question.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
It's already been in a 66 holder, you have the designation you want (it deserves), all it needs now is a technical regrade and boom, huge $$$!! I didn't look it up, but the pop may be zero for a 66dcam, so maybe it won't
Will’sProoflikes
<< <i>So, any chance it makes it into a 66DCAM holder? >>
Nope. From a technical standpoint, it's a solid MS65. The only reason it was briefly in an MS66CAM holder is because it got a contrast bump rather then the DCAM designation. I have quite a number of coins that have been through this scenario. For example, one of my MS66DCAM Birthmark Dies was purchased as an MS67CAM. From day one, I graded it MS66DCAM. Took three trips, but it's now in the correct holder.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Does the plastic really help in this case? Does anyone pay more than $10.00 for any Kennedy half dollar? What could you realistically get for it from a knowlegeble buyer? >>
Plastic makes all the difference
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
The fact that graders at TPG's take 2, 3, or more times to finally figure things out and assign the correct "Russ Grade (TM)" to the coin must be frustrating for Russ. I guess one will just have to put up with the knowledge deficiencies of others when one is the "Top Dog", the "Definitive Source" and/or the "Guru" in one's chosen field of specialization.
Maybe Russ should put together a silver short set "Grading Set", put pics of same on line, and allow all TPG's access to the pics to help them with their grading of these coins.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Russ is so good at determining the grades of his silver short set Kennedies that his opinion of the grade is in actuality and in reality the definitive grade for the coin in question.
The fact that graders at TPG's take 2, 3, or more times to finally figure things out and assign the correct "Russ Grade (TM)" to the coin must be frustrating for Russ. I guess one will just have to put up with the knowledge deficiencies of others when one is the "Top Dog", the "Definitive Source" and/or the "Guru" in one's chosen field of specialization.
Maybe Russ should put together a silver short set "Grading Set", put pics of same on line, and allow all TPG's access to the pics to help them with their grading of these coins. >>
Russ loves supporting PCGS with multiple submissions...
<< <i>Russ is so good at determining the grades of his silver short set Kennedies that his opinion of the grade is in actuality and in reality the definitive grade for the coin in question.
The fact that graders at TPG's take 2, 3, or more times to finally figure things out and assign the correct "Russ Grade (TM)" to the coin must be frustrating for Russ. I guess one will just have to put up with the knowledge deficiencies of others when one is the "Top Dog", the "Definitive Source" and/or the "Guru" in one's chosen field of specialization.
Maybe Russ should put together a silver short set "Grading Set", put pics of same on line, and allow all TPG's access to the pics to help them with their grading of these coins. >>
<< <i>Russ loves supporting PCGS with multiple submissions... >>
I'm doing my part to keep them in business. It's the helpful kind of guy I am. The value difference is just a lucky break.
Russ, NCNE
But he is also one of the best if not the best on the silver short set of Kennedies. I still want to see pics of his DCAM set, all 8 of them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Does the plastic really help in this case? Does anyone pay more than $10.00 for any Kennedy half dollar? What could you realistically get for it from a knowlegeble buyer? >>
Plastic makes all the difference >>
To whom? The buyer? The seller? Or both simultaneously?
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
Won't there be a glut of state quarters getting graded at some point?
<< <i>
<< <i>Russ loves supporting PCGS with multiple submissions... >>
I'm doing my part to keep them in business. It's the helpful kind of guy I am. The value difference is just a lucky break.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah Right. You know damn well you will CA$H in those CAM and DCAM hairy heads one day......
TorinoCobra71
<< <i><< Russ loves supporting PCGS with multiple submissions... >>
I'm doing my part to keep them in business. It's the helpful kind of guy I am. The value difference is just a lucky break.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah Right. You know damn well you will CA$H in those CAM and DCAM hairy heads one day...... >>
Yeah, you're probably right. All except one particular 1969-S which I'm going to have buried with me.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i><< Russ loves supporting PCGS with multiple submissions... >>
I'm doing my part to keep them in business. It's the helpful kind of guy I am. The value difference is just a lucky break.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah Right. You know damn well you will CA$H in those CAM and DCAM hairy heads one day...... >>
Yeah, you're probably right. All except one particular 1969-S which I'm going to have buried with me.
Russ, NCNE >>
"I am gonna dig me up a hairy head one of these days............"
TorinoCobra71
Very educational.
<< <i>This is a very interesting thread.... <snip>
Very educational. >>
I'll say...