JOHN J FORD STORY - WALTER BREEN'S MILKY WAY CANDY BAR STUCK TO BOTTOM OF MRS. NORWEB'S MINK COAT.
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JOHN J FORD STORY - WALTER BREEN'S MILKY WAY CANDY BAR STUCK TO BOTTOM OF MRS. NORWEB'S MINK COAT.
Circa 1989 interview by Legacy with John J Ford
STORY SETTING FALL OF 1956. OFFICE OF THE NEW NETHERLANDS OFFICE NY.
John J Ford had just purchased a Brasher Doubloon from FCC Boyd for $12,000 and arranged to meet Mrs. Norweb in his office to sell it to her for $14,500. (edited)
Walter Breen is writing up the doubloon pedigree and historical significance while Ford is fetching the doubloon.
FORD QUOTE: Now, as I've said, Walter had this insatiable desire for Milky Ways and Mars bars. I had to buy 3 boxes at a time, and I'd just leave them in Walter's office.... Walter is writing and listening to classical music eating Milky Ways......Walter sat in the chair, the leather chair facing me, and he discussed his briefing paper on the Brasher Doubloon. .... and all of a sudden I hear the buzzer. It's Mrs. Norweb. And I said, "Walter, get the hell out of here." Walter is wearing a toga and sandals and looks like he needs a bath.
Mrs Norweb was about 5'5" and somewhat rotund. She had on this mink coat that was gorgeous . . . this was a mink coat that, as she walked, you could just hear the dollar signs. .... It was gorgeous, probably cost as much as the Brasher Doubloon. She came in with the mink coat and sat down in the chair facing me and said, "Hellooo, John." I said, Hellooo Mrs. Norweb."
So she said, "Tell me all about this coin." So for a half an hour, I tell her all about the Brasher Doubloon . . . She says, "Do you have the coin?" ... She looks and says, "This is quite satisfactory," and drops it in her purse.. . . So she gets up and she wishes me a good day and she starts to waddle out. And in the middle of her rear end is a Milky Way crushed into this $12,000 mink coat. I mean, crushed. She had been sitting on the thing for almost an hour, and with the heat of her body, the thing diffused in the fur. She walked out past Wormser's desk, and he ran in front of her and opended the door and took her to the elevator.
And when he came walking back in, he said, "Holy Jesus, what the hell was that? It actually looked like she had an accident of some kind. You know, a Milky Way has got nougat and chocolate and I don't know .... but the thing was huge.. . It probably ruined the coat. It was baked in... I spent the next day cleaning it off the seat of the chair with linseed oil and a putty knife. It was a mess.
END OF FORD QUOTE: Apparently Mrs. Norweb never mentioned it and Ford figured she might have thought she picked it up in the taxi.
JOHN J FORD STORY - WALTER BREEN'S MILKY WAY CANDY BAR STUCK TO BOTTOM OF MRS. NORWEB'S MINK COAT.
Circa 1989 interview by Legacy with John J Ford
STORY SETTING FALL OF 1956. OFFICE OF THE NEW NETHERLANDS OFFICE NY.
John J Ford had just purchased a Brasher Doubloon from FCC Boyd for $12,000 and arranged to meet Mrs. Norweb in his office to sell it to her for $14,500. (edited)
Walter Breen is writing up the doubloon pedigree and historical significance while Ford is fetching the doubloon.
FORD QUOTE: Now, as I've said, Walter had this insatiable desire for Milky Ways and Mars bars. I had to buy 3 boxes at a time, and I'd just leave them in Walter's office.... Walter is writing and listening to classical music eating Milky Ways......Walter sat in the chair, the leather chair facing me, and he discussed his briefing paper on the Brasher Doubloon. .... and all of a sudden I hear the buzzer. It's Mrs. Norweb. And I said, "Walter, get the hell out of here." Walter is wearing a toga and sandals and looks like he needs a bath.
Mrs Norweb was about 5'5" and somewhat rotund. She had on this mink coat that was gorgeous . . . this was a mink coat that, as she walked, you could just hear the dollar signs. .... It was gorgeous, probably cost as much as the Brasher Doubloon. She came in with the mink coat and sat down in the chair facing me and said, "Hellooo, John." I said, Hellooo Mrs. Norweb."
So she said, "Tell me all about this coin." So for a half an hour, I tell her all about the Brasher Doubloon . . . She says, "Do you have the coin?" ... She looks and says, "This is quite satisfactory," and drops it in her purse.. . . So she gets up and she wishes me a good day and she starts to waddle out. And in the middle of her rear end is a Milky Way crushed into this $12,000 mink coat. I mean, crushed. She had been sitting on the thing for almost an hour, and with the heat of her body, the thing diffused in the fur. She walked out past Wormser's desk, and he ran in front of her and opended the door and took her to the elevator.
And when he came walking back in, he said, "Holy Jesus, what the hell was that? It actually looked like she had an accident of some kind. You know, a Milky Way has got nougat and chocolate and I don't know .... but the thing was huge.. . It probably ruined the coat. It was baked in... I spent the next day cleaning it off the seat of the chair with linseed oil and a putty knife. It was a mess.
END OF FORD QUOTE: Apparently Mrs. Norweb never mentioned it and Ford figured she might have thought she picked it up in the taxi.
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Comments
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>Why would John Ford have bought a coin for $12K and sold it for the same $12K? Especially this coin? >>
Rich
TYPO. Now corrected. It was $14,500 to Mrs. Norweb.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Thanks for the neat (or not neat, as the case might be) story!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
DoctorPaper
Thank you for the really great photograph
She is cute. And probably was a fine looking lady. Hopefully it should not be interpreted that Ford thought otherwise. Actually as far as I can tell Ford had a great amount of respect for Mrs. Norweb and certaintly thought she was a capable numismatist.
Vietnam Vet 69-70 - Semper Fi
Walter Breen was quite a character, a story I heard was one time he was going to visit a coin dealer and it was raining hard outside,
and he was carrying a sack lunch with grease covered pork chops, Walter comes into the coin shop soaking wet, sat down on the floor,
took his shoes and socks off and twists the socks to get out the water right on the floor of the shop and then sat there eating the
pork chops with the grease all over his face and dripping all over his beard. Must have been a sight to see. He was a numismatic
genius but a bit lacking in the social graces.
LEST WE FORGET BREEN DIED IN PRISON
Breen, unfortunately for the Numismatic community, lived a sordid life and was abundantly entitled to serve out his later days in prison. Click on BREEN DIED IN PRISON for more details.
Breen at some points in his life was an active Pedophile and even wrote extensively on the subject.
Walter Breen also spent considerable time compiling information on the history of homosexuality, particularly pederasty. His research, unprecendented in its extensive treatment of the history of homsexuality, formed the basis of his 1964 book Greek Love, which he published under the pseudonym J.Z. Eglinton. (Quoted from above link.)
What is the saying? Buy the coin not the plastic. In Breen's case, buy the book but not the author. However this does and should provide a quandary for collectors. Should we continue using Breen's extensive Encyclopedias, his half cent book and much more?
Your opinions on Breen are much appreciated and the Milky Way story presented in this thread does open that door.
<< <i>Great story, thanks. for sharing.
Walter Breen was quite a character, a story I heard was one time he was going to visit a coin dealer and it was raining hard outside,
and he was carrying a sack lunch with grease covered pork chops, Walter comes into the coin shop soaking wet, sat down on the floor,
took his shoes and socks off and twists the socks to get out the water right on the floor of the shop and then sat there eating the
pork chops with the grease all over his face and dripping all over his beard. Must have been a sight to see. He was a numismatic
genius but a bit lacking in the social graces.
I had read that story a while back and to add insult to injury Ford wrote that this large coin dealer establishment that they were visiting at the time had recently installed beautiful new wall to wall red carpeting.
<< <i>Thanks for the interesting story.
Well there is another interesting story about how Ford caused the "D" to fall off an 1927-D $20 Staint-Guadens that was being offered on the bourse floor.
By the 1970's, she was more of a grandmotherly type, similar to the character Mrs. Doubtfire played by Robin Williams. She was sharp as a tact. She was CLASSY and DIRECT and you knew where you stood with her. She was also a very nice person.
She was a true collector and I thought she was just simply awesome as a person and lady.
John Ford? He TERRIFIED me when I came around to visiting him and he was not nice to teenagers who aspired to learn the hobby of coin collecting! He was NOT a likeable person!
Walter Breen was BRILLIANT but he always gave me the CREEPS. from his days in New York City to his days in Long Island with FCI and FSI and Stanley Apfelbaum in the late 1970's, Walter was simply strange and eccentric. You need to remember that he fit in better in the late 1960's and early 1970's since our culture adopted the "hippie" look of the time.
Walter Breen was nearly the PETER MAX of the coin collecting world back then.
By the 1970's, she was more of a grandmotherly type, similar to the character Mrs. Doubtfire played by Robin Williams. She was sharp as a tact. She was CLASSY and DIRECT and you knew where you stood with her. She was also a very nice person.
She was a true collector and I thought she was just simply awesome as a person and lady.
John Ford? He TERRIFIED me when I came around to visiting him and he was not nice to teenagers who aspired to learn the hobby of coin collecting! He was NOT a likeable person!
OREVILLE
Thanks a million for sharing your personal recollections.
One question that jumps out is the John J Ford personality. Did he have a reputation similar to WC Fields, in respect to kids, or teenagers in this case, or do you think you just caught him in a coincidentally long string of bad moods?
Or anyone else who cares to comment about Ford's personality as I am planning on writing a layman's expose' on John J Ford in the near future.
Does that impact the quality or the importance of his numismatic texts?
I don't think so.
Sooner or later I won't even remember Breen's escapades or that he was expelled from a Sci Fi convention. But I will still find the quality of his research in Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins outstanding just as his other coin related books were.
Time is a great healer and once those that were witnesses or victims are no longer around, the things that people get remembered for may simply omit their "dark side".
By today's standards Julius Caesar was not at all a remommendable person (Thursday, March 15 was the anniversary of his death). We remember him for books like De Bello Gallico, quotes such as "Veni Vidi Vici". We don't consider what his armies did to win the wars and battles of his time nor do we really want to know whether he (as many Patricians of that time did) indulged in "Greek Love".
Collecting since the 1980's
Morgan Dollars Circ. Strikes
- Basic Set - Varieties - Prooflike Basic Set - Date Set
- Carson City - Early S Mint Short Set - Mintmark Type Set
Morgan Dollars Proof
- Basic Set - Varieties
Peace Circ.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
A couple of observations by me:
The man had an exceedingly sharp memory for coins and was a brilliant person. His knowledge was highly respected in his day.
He wrote an incredible encyclopedia on coins, a feat very few could ever match. However, some of his information has proven to be incorrect, obviously the type of information he put together is subject to some error, but some scholars have indicated some of Breen's book has wrong information that he should have had right. Some of his extimates are WAY off.
I have heard many stories of his poor personal hygiene, eating fried chicken with crumbs left in his beard and on his shirt while attending a coin show, similar to the pork chop story above.
His personal life with being a pedophile is absolutely disgusting and he suffered the consequences of his poor choices by being incarcerated, but unfortunately too late to prevent damages done to children.
Overall, I view his numismatic works as amazing, but realize he had enormous personal problems and that his numismatic works should be understood to be mostly correct with errors sprinkled within.
DrPete
I appreciate your insight and opinion on Breen's achievements and his character.
And you are right, no doubt many threads have been written about Breen on the CU forum. But as new members join it is always nice to bring an important subject back into the limelight.
Originally I ran a few John J Ford threads in the last week and got some pretty heavy anit-Ford; anti-Breen; and anti Sheldon comments. And some lumped them all together as crooks deserving our most sever contempt.
So I am trying to run some objective threads here about John J Ford because I believe the over 4,500 pages that Stacks has published so far about the Ford collection is monumental and all of these allegations are going to rise again and in fact are rising if you read some of the Ford threads I recently posted.
Thank you again.
BB
Thanks a million for sharing your personal recollections.
One question that jumps out is the John J Ford personality. Did he have a reputation similar to WC Fields, in respect to kids, or teenagers in this case, or do you think you just caught him in a coincidentally long string of bad moods?>>>>>>>>>>>
I am certainly not an anti-Ford person. That being said, I just remember him being incredibly impatient with me, had no use for me and was simply so intimidating towards others that were my age as well as myself. I just became terrified of him and avoided him whenever I could.
I was a frequent visitor of the Chase Manhattan Bank money museum in Rockefeller Center in New York City back in the late 1960's and early 1970's and used to study the coins every chance I got. For some reason I remember John Ford somehow being involved with that museum but do not remember how or why. Was he the curator of that museum?
I can't compare him to WC Fields because I did not really get a good fix on WC Field's personalty.
I was a frequent visitor of the Chase Manhattan Bank money museum in Rockefeller Center in New York City back in the late 1960's and early 1970's and used to study the coins every chance I got. For some reason I remember John Ford somehow being involved with that museum but do not remember how or why. Was he the curator of that museum?
Oreville
I just copied and pasted this from another post I had made on Ford so it might not exactly fit your question but Ford did not think highly of musuems for some of the reasons stated following.
Concerning the museum recoveries I quote from the Legacy interview with Ford circa 1990.
FORD: Many museum people ..... just want to exist.... I have been involved for a long time in the recovery of stolen property, and I have had experience with a lot of institutions that have some very fine numismatic items that were stolen or mysteriously disappeared. The directors adn curators want nothing to do with anybody who says something is missing. They just want to ignore it. They don't even acknowledge anything is missing.
LEGACY: Why is that?
FORD: Mainly because they don't know what they own in many cases, or if they know, they don't want any publicity ..... I can name 6 institutions that have been cleaned out in the last 15 years and they don't admit anything is missing . . . the best contributions to the science and to the hobby generally originate with individual collectors.
End of quote.
Re-awaken old thread.
Longacre has been frightened by Breen's photo in his half cent book. And for good reason.
Cheers, RonO
I just started reading "The Norweb Collection" which I just received from
one of our esteemed forum colleagues. This puts a good perspective on Mrs. Norweb.
Glad to read that story. May be I will chase other stories in the forum as I read
more from the book.
sometimes the coins are fascinating and many times the collectors are fascinating - what a hobby.
raja
John Ford was not nice to teenagers.
And then there was Walter Breen.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
shares many stories and recollections of Breen, Ford, Ambassador and
Mrs. Norweb, and other famous numismatists he's known throughout
the years. Fascinating first-hand accounts of some truly unique personalities!
How does the Golden Anniversary Edition differ from the original? Thanks.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i> I saw Mrs. Norweb wear her Mink coats on occasion in Cleveland, OH and even had the pleasure of putting it back on in Cleveland and Bratenahl, Ohio.
By the 1970's, she was more of a grandmotherly type, similar to the character Mrs. Doubtfire played by Robin Williams. She was sharp as a tact. She was CLASSY and DIRECT and you knew where you stood with her. She was also a very nice person.
She was a true collector and I thought she was just simply awesome as a person and lady.
John Ford? He TERRIFIED me when I came around to visiting him and he was not nice to teenagers who aspired to learn the hobby of coin collecting! He was NOT a likeable person!
OREVILLE
Thanks a million for sharing your personal recollections.
One question that jumps out is the John J Ford personality. Did he have a reputation similar to WC Fields, in respect to kids, or teenagers in this case, or do you think you just caught him in a coincidentally long string of bad moods?
Or anyone else who cares to comment about Ford's personality as I am planning on writing a layman's expose' on John J Ford in the near future. >>
All great stories. There is a good bio of John Ford and a few photos in the first catalogue of the Stacks John J Ford auctions.
Back in February we did a little two-day show in Knoxville. One of my longtime friends/customers at the show mentions that he has Mrs. Norweb's Roosevelt dime collection, would I like to see it? Sure thing! He runs to the house, gets it, brings it back. It even has the original Bowers and Merena sales invoice, lot 684. It's in a Dansco album, and exactly as described in the catalog:
"684. The Norweb collection of Roosevelt dimes, 1946 to 1982. (the last year in which the pieces were collected.) The set consists of MS-63 to MS-65 business strikes of the different dates and mintmarks from 1946 through 1981, except for the following, which are Proof-65: 1956, 1958, 1959, 1961, 1962, 1961, and 1981-S. In addition, there is one later coin, a 1982-S Proof (but no other 1982 pieces). (Total: 86 pieces.)"
Needless to say, once I took a look at it, complete with the obvious provenance/sales ticket to my customer, I just couldn't resist. I read the catalog description once I got back home -- the set matched in every particular. This was well before the days when collectors were looking for Full Torch coins or immaculate condition rarities, and the coins are just nice, run-of-the-mill BU and proof coins, some with gorgeous toning. But Mrs. Norweb was a true collector at heart. She was born in 1895, and she could buy Brasher doubloons and anything else she wanted, and here she is putting ordinary BU and proof Roosevelt dimes into her little set, up until two years before she passed. She would have been 86-87 years old when she put that last dime into the set.
I overpaid maybe a little for the set, but not much. For the provenance, it was well worth it. It gives me a nice, fuzzy, warm feeling about her, and those are certainly the kind of numismatic friends, customers, and associates I want, just folks who deep down love their coins! It was by far one of the neatest purchases I have ever made at a show. And no way am I ever breaking up that set.
We now return to our original programming ...
Best Regards,
George
Thanks.
Best Regards,
George
<< <i>I have always found posting pictures on this site to be next to impossible, given my level of computer expertise. If any of you want to see it, send me a PM with your e-mail and I can send photos from my iPad easily to you. Best I can do.
Best Regards,
George >>
Agree. Everything I have seems to exceed size limits.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
it is nice to see there was a time elite women didnt die their hair some shade/hue of blonde.
for those that want to read the text/caption on the image.
"emery may holden in a 1915 photograph. two years later she became mrs. r. henry norweb. from an early age
emery may was interested in numismatics."
R. appears to be for raymond.
<< <i>In her younger days, Mrs. Norweb was kind of cute. Sounds like the years weren't kind.:
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Mrs. Norweb, age 81-ish
Best Regards,
George
BHNC #203