Anyone up for an Ebay soap opera with Buffalo nickel varieties?
buffnut
Posts: 933
This is painful, but could be an interesting read to some of you. If you don't like drama and fantastic claims based on woeful ignorance, stop here! Cut and pasted directly from Ebay messages, unedited, and it their entirety. It began with an "Ask the seller a question" from my listing for a 1916D 3 1/2 leg buffalo nickel. It exploded from there. Grab your popcorn, have a seat, and enjoy!
Q: Travis, While you present this coin as a certified "3 1/2 leg", PCGS only recognizes the 1936-D as a "3 1/2" leg. If I squint and turn my head to the right ,I still have doubts that these coins are different from the certified PCGS coins. PCGS has no price for the MS-63 1936-D "3 1/2 leg", so I imagine it dosen't exist. The 1937-D "3 leg" in MS-63 is valued by PCGS as $5850. There is no way a 1916D "3 1/2 leg" is worth $5000. No one but an amateur will bid for this coin. Richard
A: Hi Dick- I guess I will have to be the one to relay the bad news to you- PCGS is not the be all end all of varieties! Yes- you heard it here! Plus I'm not even sure what you are saying. You have (quote) doubts that these coins are different from the certified PCGS coins (end quote). Well other than the fact that they are different years, mintages, grades, and certification companies, you are exactly right! You also state that a coin does not exist because it isn't on a price guide? You have no clue what you are talking about, nor any idea what this coin should be valued at. Now what was your question?
(The next back and forth was concerning the 1913 2 1/2 feather that I also have up for sale. After that, we return to the 1916D discussion.)
Q: Travis, Once again, where is the 1/2 feather? I think ANACS over-rates this coin, in spite of the "scratch." - your photos are too poor to evaluate this flaw. The date is too weak for an AU-55. I am a serious buffalo collector, and your coins are beautiful, but they stand on their own merit and do not need to be mis-represented. Richard
A: Once again, don't waste my time. If you look at the enlargement with the gigantic die polish mark that not only wipes out half the feather, but also part of the neck, you will see the 1/2 feather. You are obviously off your meds again. Misrepresented? How so? Because you are ignorant of the variety? You should really read Ron Pope's new book on abraded die varieties, Mr. serious collector.
Q: So, you lost this bidder. Nice talking to you.
Richard
A: You trash talk all of my auctions, and yet you want me to believe that you were a potential bidder? You're funny- the only interest you had was in attempting to tell me that my coins were overgraded and not the varieties I claim them to be. If you were a bidder, you might have, let's see, bid on the coin instead of complaining about it. Go troll somewhere else.
Q: Travis,
You condescend as though you were only 15 years old. Lighten up! I like Buffalo Nickels by David Lange, unassuming, easy data. I haven't read Pope, yet.
I have $25,000 in Morgan silver dollars and nearly $50,000 in other US coins and stamps. I have made mistakes and subsequently upgraded, at my foolish cost.
I am always leary of coin "experts" creating varieties that are only die varieties, big deal. The half leg and 2 feathers-2 1/2 feathers are die varieties of almost no signicance, and are frequently, counterfeited and altered. This was my basic premise in questioning your presentation of these coins. I am not suggesting that you prevaricated the substance of your coins, only the reality of true die variations, which is subjective, at best. I wish you success as a seller and plead honesty in presentation.
Richard
A: Your academic verbosity still lends no credit to your statements. I have no need whatsoever for your misguided opinions about my coins. Whether you think they are significant or not, they are absolutely everything that I represent them to be. I know these varieties as well as anyone, and was a contributor to the very book that defines these varieties. On what basis do you claim that I am dishonest in presentation? You know absolutely nothing about these varieties. Nothing! How can you sit on your high horse and tell me about the authenticity of my varieties when you haven't even read Pope's book? Every single 3 1/2 leg variety I have listed, with the exception of the 1916D is outlined in the new cherrypicker's guide, and has been assigned a Fivaz-Stanton number as well. In the subtitle, I stated UNLISTED VARIETY. So tell me what about my auction is dishonest? Just because you have a personal opinion that they are insignificant means exactly jack squat as to whether they are what I represent them to be. You need to either put forward some concrete evidence that I am misrepresenting my coins and report me to ebay, or you need to shut your mouth! You of all people should know about minor die variations and really how insignificant they can be. You are surely aware of all of the VAM varieties- most with much less die variation than what I have listed.
You OBVIOUSLY had no interest in my auctions, yet you deem it necessary to email and tell me that the varieties don't exist, that they are overpriced, that they are overgraded, that they are possibly counterfeited or altered, and that I am misrepresenting my coins and have a problem with honesty. Did you email just to argue with me? Do you think ANACS would slab all of these coins if they were counterfeit, or altered? Don't pretend to know things that you have not the first clue about. Read the book, then come back and start an argument. Until then, you are basing your entire premise on your opinion.
Q: Guess I scratched a scab. I won't be buying Pope's book, either.
A: Exactly as expected- perpetuate your ignorance on the basis that you already know enough to make these claims. Remember- you are the one throwing accusations of misrepresentation and dishonesty, but you have yet to tell me one single way in which I have represented my coins falsely. I take my reputation as an honest seller very seriously. If you have no evidence or even background knowledge to support your assinine claims, then you shouldn't make them, plain and simple. I find it a pity that you would not read Ron Pope's book because of me. I have no financial interests in the sale of that book whatsoever, so you only serve to keep yourself uninformed by opting not to read the reference. Let me know when you can show me that my coins, pictures, or descriptions are inaccurate in any fashion. I don't at all take issue with your opinion- these varieties are only of interest to a very few specialty collectors, as are a majority of varieties in the coin world. You absolutely have the right to your opinion on their significance as well. What I do take issue to is your blatantly uniformed claims to the questionable authenticity of the varieties and your assertion that I am portraying these coins to be something that they are not. My coins are absolutely the varieties I claim they are. Why you would have any interest in saying otherwise is beyond me, but I will not under any circumstance stand by and let anyone attack my integrity as a seller and as a buffalo nickel specialist as you have.
Sorry Ron- looks like I may have lost you a customer for your book
However given the circumstances, I personally wouldn't want his money anyway.
I know- I egged this on farther than it should have gone, but I'm not about to let this slimebucket tell me I am dishonest. Sheesh- I just can't figure some people...
Q: Travis, While you present this coin as a certified "3 1/2 leg", PCGS only recognizes the 1936-D as a "3 1/2" leg. If I squint and turn my head to the right ,I still have doubts that these coins are different from the certified PCGS coins. PCGS has no price for the MS-63 1936-D "3 1/2 leg", so I imagine it dosen't exist. The 1937-D "3 leg" in MS-63 is valued by PCGS as $5850. There is no way a 1916D "3 1/2 leg" is worth $5000. No one but an amateur will bid for this coin. Richard
A: Hi Dick- I guess I will have to be the one to relay the bad news to you- PCGS is not the be all end all of varieties! Yes- you heard it here! Plus I'm not even sure what you are saying. You have (quote) doubts that these coins are different from the certified PCGS coins (end quote). Well other than the fact that they are different years, mintages, grades, and certification companies, you are exactly right! You also state that a coin does not exist because it isn't on a price guide? You have no clue what you are talking about, nor any idea what this coin should be valued at. Now what was your question?
(The next back and forth was concerning the 1913 2 1/2 feather that I also have up for sale. After that, we return to the 1916D discussion.)
Q: Travis, Once again, where is the 1/2 feather? I think ANACS over-rates this coin, in spite of the "scratch." - your photos are too poor to evaluate this flaw. The date is too weak for an AU-55. I am a serious buffalo collector, and your coins are beautiful, but they stand on their own merit and do not need to be mis-represented. Richard
A: Once again, don't waste my time. If you look at the enlargement with the gigantic die polish mark that not only wipes out half the feather, but also part of the neck, you will see the 1/2 feather. You are obviously off your meds again. Misrepresented? How so? Because you are ignorant of the variety? You should really read Ron Pope's new book on abraded die varieties, Mr. serious collector.
Q: So, you lost this bidder. Nice talking to you.
Richard
A: You trash talk all of my auctions, and yet you want me to believe that you were a potential bidder? You're funny- the only interest you had was in attempting to tell me that my coins were overgraded and not the varieties I claim them to be. If you were a bidder, you might have, let's see, bid on the coin instead of complaining about it. Go troll somewhere else.
Q: Travis,
You condescend as though you were only 15 years old. Lighten up! I like Buffalo Nickels by David Lange, unassuming, easy data. I haven't read Pope, yet.
I have $25,000 in Morgan silver dollars and nearly $50,000 in other US coins and stamps. I have made mistakes and subsequently upgraded, at my foolish cost.
I am always leary of coin "experts" creating varieties that are only die varieties, big deal. The half leg and 2 feathers-2 1/2 feathers are die varieties of almost no signicance, and are frequently, counterfeited and altered. This was my basic premise in questioning your presentation of these coins. I am not suggesting that you prevaricated the substance of your coins, only the reality of true die variations, which is subjective, at best. I wish you success as a seller and plead honesty in presentation.
Richard
A: Your academic verbosity still lends no credit to your statements. I have no need whatsoever for your misguided opinions about my coins. Whether you think they are significant or not, they are absolutely everything that I represent them to be. I know these varieties as well as anyone, and was a contributor to the very book that defines these varieties. On what basis do you claim that I am dishonest in presentation? You know absolutely nothing about these varieties. Nothing! How can you sit on your high horse and tell me about the authenticity of my varieties when you haven't even read Pope's book? Every single 3 1/2 leg variety I have listed, with the exception of the 1916D is outlined in the new cherrypicker's guide, and has been assigned a Fivaz-Stanton number as well. In the subtitle, I stated UNLISTED VARIETY. So tell me what about my auction is dishonest? Just because you have a personal opinion that they are insignificant means exactly jack squat as to whether they are what I represent them to be. You need to either put forward some concrete evidence that I am misrepresenting my coins and report me to ebay, or you need to shut your mouth! You of all people should know about minor die variations and really how insignificant they can be. You are surely aware of all of the VAM varieties- most with much less die variation than what I have listed.
You OBVIOUSLY had no interest in my auctions, yet you deem it necessary to email and tell me that the varieties don't exist, that they are overpriced, that they are overgraded, that they are possibly counterfeited or altered, and that I am misrepresenting my coins and have a problem with honesty. Did you email just to argue with me? Do you think ANACS would slab all of these coins if they were counterfeit, or altered? Don't pretend to know things that you have not the first clue about. Read the book, then come back and start an argument. Until then, you are basing your entire premise on your opinion.
Q: Guess I scratched a scab. I won't be buying Pope's book, either.
A: Exactly as expected- perpetuate your ignorance on the basis that you already know enough to make these claims. Remember- you are the one throwing accusations of misrepresentation and dishonesty, but you have yet to tell me one single way in which I have represented my coins falsely. I take my reputation as an honest seller very seriously. If you have no evidence or even background knowledge to support your assinine claims, then you shouldn't make them, plain and simple. I find it a pity that you would not read Ron Pope's book because of me. I have no financial interests in the sale of that book whatsoever, so you only serve to keep yourself uninformed by opting not to read the reference. Let me know when you can show me that my coins, pictures, or descriptions are inaccurate in any fashion. I don't at all take issue with your opinion- these varieties are only of interest to a very few specialty collectors, as are a majority of varieties in the coin world. You absolutely have the right to your opinion on their significance as well. What I do take issue to is your blatantly uniformed claims to the questionable authenticity of the varieties and your assertion that I am portraying these coins to be something that they are not. My coins are absolutely the varieties I claim they are. Why you would have any interest in saying otherwise is beyond me, but I will not under any circumstance stand by and let anyone attack my integrity as a seller and as a buffalo nickel specialist as you have.
Sorry Ron- looks like I may have lost you a customer for your book
However given the circumstances, I personally wouldn't want his money anyway. I know- I egged this on farther than it should have gone, but I'm not about to let this slimebucket tell me I am dishonest. Sheesh- I just can't figure some people...
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Comments
Why not just ignore the question? As a seller, I would have ignored the first question and all the rest, or answered the first and then ignored the rest, but I wouldn't have come across as harshly as you did.
As a bidder, I wouldn't have been so rough on the questions but I also would have written of the seller pretty quick, and not in polite terms, if they answered back like that.
I wonder if it is these forums that invite people to come up with the most clever smash against other ebayers or if they would do it anyway and these forums just allow them to express that?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Now I want to see the auction listings...
Just don't ask any questions if your name is "Dick" or Richard
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Now I want to see the auction listings... >>
I think there are links on the BST.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>No one but an amateur will bid for this coin. Richard
A: Hi Dick - I guess... >>
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Good trades with: DaveN, Tydye, IStillLikeZARCoins, Fjord, Louie, BRdude
Good buys from: LordMarcovan, Aethelred, Ajaan, PrivateCoinCollector, LindeDad, Peaceman, Spoon, DrJules, jjrrww
Good sale to: Nicholasz219
Wasn't this something David Hall talked about at/after the FUN event. People talking down someone's coins and then buying them up at discount?
If I only had a dollar for every VAM I have...err...nevermind...I do!!
My "Fun With 21D" Die State Collection - QX5 Pics Attached
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<< <i>Now I want to see the auction listings...
There is a link on the BST forums. Just search for Buff and it should show up close to the top.
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A troll left some bait, and I took it.
I agree the best course of action in the future will be to ignore such garbage. However I take stabs at my honesty very seriously, and have absolutely nothing to hide or be ashamed of. That's why I wanted him to tell me just what was dishonest or fraudulent about my auctions- and he had nothing.
<< <i>"You trash talk all of my auctions, and yet you want me to believe that you were a potential bidder? You're funny- the only interest you had was in attempting to tell me that my coins were overgraded and not the varieties I claim them to be. If you were a bidder, you might have, let's see, bid on the coin instead of complaining about it. Go troll somewhere else."
Wasn't this something David Hall talked about at/after the FUN event. People talking down someone's coins and then buying them up at discount? >>
Don't know what Mr. Hall said, but it is a common tactic of slimeballs everywhere. They are best handled by politely refusing to discuss it further, and even withdrawing the coin for sale to them. Followed, of course, by never doing business with them again.
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Hard not to sometimes. Remember, they know the agenda before you do.
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Steve
<< <i>When it comes to a questioning one's honesty, I can understand your response. In hindsight it may have been better to act as Bochiman describes, albeit difficult, but the act of posting your actions on the boards points to both your intent to be honest and emotional attachment to the buffs. All in all, "no harm, no foul", and the guy was/is a jerk.
Thanks RC. Lesson learned. I did block him from bidding on my auctions, and have decided not to respond to any further messages from him.
Also- to make things right, I purchased one of Ron's Abraded Die Variety books to make up for the possible lost sale from our friend Richard
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>Too bad you couldn't come up with a catchier name for it, like "Gimpy Buffalo", then morons like your questioner would be lining up with their checkbooks extended.
Sean Reynolds >>
Great idea! Since the leg isn't as weak as others of this variety, it could be the "sheared leg" buffalo. Or since it kinda looks like a peg leg, it could be the "Pirate buffalo".
I need to get one of the hobo nickel artists to carve a parrot on the buffalo's shoulder, and an eyepatch for the Indian.
ARRRRRRR!!!
If the Q/A was shown as a part of the listing then I'd think a different approach would have been better. It's just a fact that some people won't take the time to read everything and then form an educated opinion. They might just see the acusation and a lengthy reply and hit the "back" button. Maybe a polite version of "you don't know what you're talking about"; short and sweet.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Q: Travis, While you present this coin as a certified "3 1/2 leg", PCGS only recognizes the 1936-D as a "3 1/2" leg. If I squint and turn my head to the right ,I still have doubts that these coins are different from the certified PCGS coins. PCGS has no price for the MS-63 1936-D "3 1/2 leg", so I imagine it dosen't exist. The 1937-D "3 leg" in MS-63 is valued by PCGS as $5850. There is no way a 1916D "3 1/2 leg" is worth $5000. No one but an amateur will bid for this coin. Richard
A: Ok.
Q: Travis, Once again, where is the 1/2 feather? I think ANACS over-rates this coin, in spite of the "scratch." - your photos are too poor to evaluate this flaw. The date is too weak for an AU-55. I am a serious buffalo collector, and your coins are beautiful, but they stand on their own merit and do not need to be mis-represented. Richard
A: Ok.
In the end, whether you went a little too far in this instance is meaningless.
I believe in my knowledege, as you, because I KNOW the time and energy I put in to educating myself.
..........Sometimes ya just gotta strike out and defend that knowledge.
Pete
<< <i>I realize this is about the interplay between you and Richard, but I'm not seeing the 3 &1/2 leg on the 16d or the 1/2 extra feather on the other one either. I don't do buff varieties, but I am in tune with the concept of a variety being obvious so as to be recognized. I just had this 1943d rpm rejected by CONECA as a new listing, because it's "too minor", yet it's pretty obvious. I don't think your varieties are obvious, and Richard was saying so, and you got defensive. It went too far on both your parts IMO.
I think we are shifting focus here. I don't determine the level of "obvious" for the varieties. They are what they are. All I do is correctly label the coin as the variety it is. Now, if you can see the microscopic shift in the mintmark of that penny, but you can't see anything out of the ordinary with the following, then that really has me scratching my head!
The guy owns $25,000 in Morgan silver dollars and nearly $50,000 in other US coins and stamps. He is clearly the master and you the mear student.
Shame on you. You should thank him for the education.
I love how people think that they are experts at a certain hobby just because they have spent x amount of dollars in it. If that were the case, I would be an expert on FEDERAL TAXES!
If he had said something like he was an understudy to Lange and conducted in depth research on buffalo varieties, then I would...
aww nevermind, I'd still think he was an idiot.
<< <i>Travis,
They guy owns $25,000 in Morgan silver dollars and nearly $50,000 in other US coins and stamps. He is clearly the master and you the mear student.
Shame on you. You should thank him for the education.
So ones knowledge of coins is based on the value of thier collection, no wonder I'm still in the dark maybe I can use this argument on the wife so I can buy more coins under the cover of continuing education
<< <i>So ones knowledge of coins is based on the value of thier collection, no wonder I'm...etc. >>
Yes, of Course it is! Post count is also a great indicator of knowledge
Lincoln set Colorless Set
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
<< <i> I have $25,000 in Morgan silver dollars and nearly $50,000 in other US coins and stamps >>
Should have really yanked his chain and shot back- heh, $25K is what I spent on my last Morgan....