What the heck is this???

ipmman · March 3, 2007 4:31AM

What the heck is this???

I bought this at an auction for $675.00 years ago. Pretty foolish, considering I had, and still have no idea what it is. It is in an elaborate mini-mosaic box with ivory handle and inlays. The box seems to be custom made for this medal.

It is Bronze, About 4 1/2", 120mm in diameter. I cant make out all of the legends surrounding the bust, but this i see "HENRICV....IIII" on the left. i can't nake out anything but a single letter here or there on the right. I can't tell you what is on the reverse, because it is glued into the presentation box.

In the presentation box there is a typed provenance: "Found in Arcadia, Greece in 1798 by Capt. John Silvers, of the sailing vessel 'Sloop', Merkings on medallion indicate 'Henric'". There is also a little map of Greece, and a legend for the map.

I actually brought this to Antiques Roadshow, and they could only guess at what it was. I have tried to rersearch this medal, but entering John Silvers on a search engine gives you thousands of links to sift through--from the fastfood restaurant!

MrEureka · March 3, 2007 6:29AM

That's probably Henry IV of France.

DesertRat · March 3, 2007 9:28AM

Well ipmman, you definitely have a puzzle on your hands with that one and here's why.

The provenance seems to be missing some information. where it says "of the sailing vessel 'Sloop'" there should be a name after the word sloop.

A sloop is a specific type of sailing vessel and wouldn't be the given name of a vessel all by itself. Typically a reference to the ship might be made such as the "H.M.S. Sloop Avenger" for instance, the full designation meaning....1. that it was a vessel belonging to Britain HMS= "Her/His Majesty's Ship" 2. the type of vessel which in this case is a sloop and 3. the christened name of the ship ie; the Avenger. We would also see this in the U.S. Navy where we might say the "Cruiser USS Antietam"

So it would appear that maybe some of the provenance was lost or it was not finished.

Arcadia, Greece is one of the 51 prefectures of Greece (similar to states or provinces) so the reference is very broad geographically speaking. It would be kind of like saying that "I found a medal in California."

That, coupled with the name John Silvers (which is definitely not Hellenic in origin) made me think that Capt. Silvers was a foreigner visiting Greece and most likely either British or American (Probably Continental Navy as the U.S. Navy was just established in 1798.)

Unfortunately there is no record of a John Silvers (much less a Captain) serving in the U.S. Navy in the 18th century. There was an Ensign Frank H. Silvers, who served in the Spanish American War 100 years later in 1898 (relative maybe?)).

So, having come to a dead end in the US Navy I looked at Royal Navy records and although there are records of 7 men with the last name of Silvers having served in the Royal Navy, the only John is a John Clarence Silvers who joined the Royal Navy in January 20, 1899.

The only record I found for a Silvers in the British National Archives that meets the time frame even was the Last Will and Testament of a Daniel Silvers, a Glass cutter from Worchestershire and dated 4 October 1809.

Although records are not 100% available online the Brits did keep good records and the fact that I found those listed above tells me we might not be looking for a British naval officer after all. Possibly a pirate?

A cursory search of the French Ministry of defense archives shows no "Silvers" either, although I suspected as such.

Is there any other writing on the box save what you quoted?

In 1798 the people of Greece were fighting towards their independence from the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire which they achevied in 1829. I'll look down that line and see what pops up in terms of whether mercenaries were hired and such.

I'll keep looking and see what I can uncover. This is becoming an interesting challenge now

Danny

1jester · March 3, 2007 10:13AM

Since the description doesn't list the ship as "HMS Sloop...." then it most likely was a private ship of some sort. Good call, Rat! So the legend of Long John Silver takes on new meaning...

ipmman · March 4, 2007 5:13PM

Thanks for all of your input. Once you see just how elaborate the presentation of the medal is, your curiousy should increase. it makes you wonder why someone went to so much trouble to display this piece?

I am adding more scans here.

Here is the outside of the box:

Here is a close-up of the detail of the micro-mosaic, the light material is likely ivory:

And the entire inside, notice how plush the bottom of the cover is:

here is the paper explaining the origin of the medal:

1jester · March 4, 2007 5:18PM

What an incredibly beautiful box!!!

I wonder if the as yet unknown captain actually did sail a ship named "Sloop" even though a sloop is a type of ship. I wonder if the captain, if he was a pirate of some sort, found the medal after looting a ship, and took it as a trophy, even having the elaborate box crafted to display it since it was so important to him.

Good luck in your hunt, and in the meantime you can be happy in the knowledge that the box has exquisitely done handiwork.

coachleonard · March 5, 2007 8:22AM

i agree with ipmman that it's probably Henry IV on the face of the medal, which would date it to 1589-1610. Definitely looks to
be of that period. Any design on the reverse?

Madame · March 6, 2007 2:37AM

That box is looks worth $675 by itself.

DesertRat · March 6, 2007 3:06AM

After searching through merchant ships of the period I have struck out. Your Capt. John Silvers of the vessel "Sloop" is an enigma in maritime history.

The box is way too cool though!

mirabela · March 6, 2007 5:38AM

That is quite amazing.

1jester · March 6, 2007 6:30AM

Is it more than just a faint, remote possibility that the famous fictional character Long John Silver was based on a real-life pirate? To me it seems eerily possible that there might have been at least a legend of such a buccaneer at one time. Here, after all, we have historical reference or evidence, if you will, of a captain named John Silver(s), who piloted a boat which is not mentioned in the annals of official government records.

Just my mind wandering...

DesertRat · March 6, 2007 6:53AM

<< <i>Is it more than just a faint, remote possibility that the famous fictional character Long John Silver was based on a real-life pirate? To me it seems eerily possible that there might have been at least a legend of such a buccaneer at one time. Here, after all, we have historical reference or evidence, if you will, of a captain named John Silver(s), who piloted a boat which is not mentioned in the annals of official government records.

Just my mind wandering...

>>

The one thing missing in the provenance is the story of who sold it to ipmman. The typing makes it obvious that whoever wrote that it was "found in arcadia, greece etc.." did it in relatively recent times. Who wrote it and where did their info come from? There is 209 years of story to fill in which makes it difficult to determine why the medal was so important to the owner that they would spend considerable money to have such an ornate box made to hold it.

I love these types of history's mysteries. This one is definitely puzzling given the lack of information.

ipmman · March 6, 2007 8:26AM

I bought it at Harvey Clar Auction galleries in Oakland , CA. they deal mostly in art and decorative arts, and are now a live auctioneer listed on ebay. I don't remember the exact date, but would guess 1995ish. They made no representations about it.

CptSilvers · March 8, 2007 5:31AM

Hi buckos.

You have found me likeness, thus breakin' t' evil curse laid upon me by evildoers. I be free t' travel t' high seas yet again! I'll be takin' aft me booty, now, in me smartly ship "Sloop". Hand it over or pay with yarr mangy lives!

ajaan · March 8, 2007 6:51AM

hmm . . . he does seem to look like Wayne.

What the heck is this???

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