Certified coin scam on eBay with an old PCGS label insert...

ellewood · February 23, 2007 10:59PM

Now THIS is pretty creative!!!!

Amazing what people will do these days

OKbustchaser · February 23, 2007 11:27PM

So where is the scam? For that matter, where is the lable insert you claim in your title. Seller is selling exactly what he says he is...a coin graded by PCGC. Nowhere does he claim it is a PCGS coin...he, for a change, doesn't even claim it is worth what a PCGS coin is worth.

mrpaseo · February 24, 2007 12:18AM

By looking at the pictures, it's obvious they are selling the slab not the coin.

I believe he/she is playing on the fact that PCGC is almost like PCGS (I know it's hard to make the connection, but there it is). Also, they show pictures of the slab NOT the DD coin that they claim they are selling.

When you write, "This coin's condition is marked as MS68" you are stating what the slab says, NOT what the grade of the coin is, it's a scammers way to say "You should have read the auction better, it clearly states "This coin's condition is marked as MS68". Basically, he/she doesn't think the coin is a MS68 or they would have either said, This coin is in MS68 condition (Or something to that fact) OR they would have a close up picture of the coin, not the slab.

They then procede to write, "Look at the coin and YOU decide what your grade is and what you are willing to pay." This statement obsolves the seller of proper grading as he/she tells you to grade the coin from pictures that you can hardly see the coin.

This sentence allows the seller to play stupid, "The consignor says it time to sell his coins and let someone else enjoy them. He said to sell them with no reserve." Something like this, Um, I'm not a collector, I don't know how to grade, the consigner said it was MS68, I told you to grade for yourself....yadda, yadda, yadda....

This phrase in RED is a flag, "This item is consigned and there is no return!!!"

These are the reasons I FEEL this ebay seller is a scammer.

Ray

edited because it's abvious I can not spell

mrearlygold · February 24, 2007 12:21AM

Ohio, figures

TwoSides2aCoin · February 24, 2007 12:22AM

The coin looks nice, but I would venture to say it is way overgraded. Which variety of the DOUBLED DIE is it ?

Ray, you hit on a lot of good points with "things" to be aware of in listings.

Joe

roadrunner · February 24, 2007 12:24AM

I understand the seller's intent.....but there is no plain fraud here.

I cannot even see the insert on my computer so that's part of the problem. Is there really an old PCGS insert placed on the back of this oddball slab? And did the seller alter the letters to PCGC?

roadrunner

mrpaseo · February 24, 2007 12:31AM

Ya your right, this person is not a scammer... this auction is for a NGS slab...

At least there is a close up of the coin in this one...

Ray

PS. If it walks like a dog, smells like a dog, it's most likely a duck rght?

mrpaseo · February 24, 2007 12:35AM

<< I understand the seller's intent.....but there is no plain fraud here.

I cannot even see the insert on my computer so that's part of the problem. Is there really an old PCGS insert placed on the back of this oddball slab? And did the seller alter the letters to PCGC?

roadrunner >>

I would love to hear what you think this sellers "intent" is.

Even if you all keep saying, "There is no plain fraud here" that doesn't mean they are not being fraudulent.

For educational purposes, here is a Cut and Paste from www.dictionary.com

fraud
–noun
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

I took the liberty of bolding a few of the words to help you all understand.

roadrunner · February 24, 2007 12:46AM

I consider FRAUD to be something that will hold up in a court of law or will be actionable with a resulting cash judgement agains seller.
Anything else doesn't matter imo. People like to use the word fraud like it means something. It usually doesn't.

The intent of the seller.......though I didn't state it because it was so OBVIOUS....was to deceive or deflect. It his however not actionable fraud imo....since all the information is right there for you to make an honest decision. Go ahead and take this to court, let's see what happens. The buyer will be called a "jamoke" and the seller "ingenious." All used car salesman, and probably most new car salesman are therefore frauds as well. How often do we see them in court? Yard sales? They are filled with deceit. The BST forum, probably deceitful as well. Most people sell coins because they don't want them anymore. Are they required to state ALL reasons why the want out? (possibly AT? overgraded? low end?
unattractive? falling in price?). Unless you include all that and more you are hiding something. No chit.

Based on deceit or lying, most everyone in the world, including most members of this forum have been guility of fraud by stating anything but the 100% truth. By leaving out statements of truth, the intent is to deceive or cover up the truth. So we're all frauds. You fail to take a good photo to show all defects of a coin, or fail to mention all significant defects, then your're a fraud. Most auction descriptions would therefore be fraudulent since they are attempting to deceive (or coax top dollar). Puffery therefore now becomes deception (ie fraud)??? The lawyers would have a field day. "My what a beautiful baby you have." How many times would that statement now be liable for fraud and court appearance for pain and suffering? Let's get real here. Most every minute of everyday life would now qualify for fraud. "My how good you look in that outfit?" "Are you losing weight?"

While I personally do try to explain every defect on coins that I sell
(to my own detriment at times), one can NEVER be 100% honest all the time. If you forget to mention even one defect on a coin you are selling (and that can be that 10 people have passed on this dog already), then you are being deceitful....plain and simple. A tough standard to live up to indeed.

roadrunner

OKbustchaser · February 24, 2007 12:48AM

So for educational purposes, then, WHERE IS THE DECEPTION that you claim is fraud? As for his intent...it is the same as yours or anyone elses would be if selling even a PCGS slab...to reap the best price available for what you are selling.

TwoSides2aCoin · February 24, 2007 12:51AM

Ray, on a few issues, I never render grades under XF when I sell on ebay. I show a picture. I am not scamming by not rendering a grade, but am only selling SILVER coins/widgets/ NOT WORTHY OF LAURA coins/JUNK.... So we must be careful how we determine what is "SCAMMING and FRAUD".

None of us really know the seller's intent. The fact that a guy sells third world slabs tells me to steer clear. PERIOD !

Kindly,
Joe

mrpaseo · February 24, 2007 1:00AM

roadrunner, thats a good post and well received, you make great points.

I do however stand with TwoSides2aCoin and will steer clear of this sellers auctions.

Thank you for your opinion.

Ray

mrpaseo · February 24, 2007 1:02AM

<< So for educational purposes, then, WHERE IS THE DECEPTION that you claim is fraud? As for his intent...it is the same as yours or anyone elses would be if selling even a PCGS slab...to reap the best price available for what you are selling. >>

So ahhh, these your auctions or your coins being sold?

Maybe you were taken for a ride and your defending yourself...lol.

I would be interested to see what you wrote before you edited this post.

Ray

OKbustchaser · February 24, 2007 1:16AM

<< 

<< So for educational purposes, then, WHERE IS THE DECEPTION that you claim is fraud? As for his intent...it is the same as yours or anyone elses would be if selling even a PCGS slab...to reap the best price available for what you are selling. >>

So ahhh, these your auctions or your coins being sold?

Maybe you were taken for a ride and your defending yourself...lol.

I would be interested to see what you wrote before you edited this post.

Ray >>

No, Ray, they aren't my coins being sold. I don't know the seller nor do I know the consignor. As for what I wrote prior to the edit I added the phrase "even in a PCGS slab".

mrpaseo · February 24, 2007 1:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< So for educational purposes, then, WHERE IS THE DECEPTION that you claim is fraud? As for his intent...it is the same as yours or anyone elses would be if selling even a PCGS slab...to reap the best price available for what you are selling. >>

So ahhh, these your auctions or your coins being sold?

Maybe you were taken for a ride and your defending yourself...lol.

I would be interested to see what you wrote before you edited this post.

Ray >>

No, Ray, they aren't my coins being sold. I don't know the seller nor do I know the consignor. As for what I wrote prior to the edit I added the phrase "even in a PCGS slab". >>

Well then, to answer your question I refer you back to my first post.

Ray

roadrunner · February 24, 2007 1:23AM

I would avoid this seller as well. My own ebay searches exclude anything but PCGS, NGC and ANACS coins so I would never even see this auction. I also exclude all retail power sellers who you can't ever get a break on (they sell low end coins for retail). Hey, it doesn't leave all that much to look at but it's easier. I leave the hard stuff to everyone else.

roadrunner

mozeppa · February 24, 2007 1:26AM

<< "The fact that a guy sells third world slabs tells me to steer clear. PERIOD !" >>

You are gonna miss out on many a fine coins (and rips) at bargain prices with that attidude!...learn to grade the COIN ....and dismiss
whatever houses it!

RBinTex · February 24, 2007 1:27AM

I', surprised he didn't put PCGS in the title.

cheezhed · February 24, 2007 1:32AM

He's got the compositon of the coin wrong as well, he lists it as "copper".

OKbustchaser · February 24, 2007 1:33AM

<< I', surprised he didn't put PCGS in the title. >>

But, but, but, THAT would be deceitful!

roadrunner · February 24, 2007 1:38AM

For the vast majority of coin buyers, for every winner you might get on ebay in a 3rd world holder, I would bet there are multiple losers to accompany it. Net effect, is usually a loss. I like to consider myself a pretty saavy buyer. But even at shows, I realize the risks of buying something in a 3rd tier holder. There's a reason it was put there (hidden damage, altered surfaces, cleaned, 3 pts overgraded, etc). Considering that the best graders in the world do it right 80% of the time, that means you'll take a bath on at least one of 5 raw coins that you have to buy competitively (don't count the lil old lady).

My own experience buying 4 figure RAW coins at auction is that 1 of every 4 to 6 coins is a loser. And if you are off 1 grade pt. (with 2 or 3 underbidders supporting you), that loss will probably wipe out whatever you gained on the other few. Getting a coin graded what you thought it was usually gets you a 10-20% profit. Missing one, gets you a 50% loss in most cases, sometimes more. Now if you start with problem coins in holders, I can only imagine what the hit or miss rate is. At auction I'm picking the best "problem-free" coins I can, then having to win them under competition. 3rd world slabs bring another facet in to the game that really muddies the waters. I'd rather have 3rd tiers raw out of the holder where I can see everything. Altered surface coins are getting into top holders. I know cuz I've cracked some out and they got bagged later. So how will one fair on 3rd tier slabs?

roadrunner

Certified coin scam on eBay with an old PCGS label insert...

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