VAM'ers..about the 1896-O small "O" VAM-4

Bruggs · February 18, 2007 12:17AM

I think this variety is now considered a counterfiet. In the eyes of the people who collect VAM's, is this variety still considered collectible? and does it still hold it's big value?
Thanks.
Bruggs

messydesk · February 18, 2007 12:50AM

It's still considered very collectible and is still quite valuable.

Rampage · February 18, 2007 1:11AM

I've got two 1896-O, one 1900-O, and two 1902-O Micro-Os. I've also got one 1900-O Medium O counterfeit. I am hoping to get one more 1900-O Micro-O, so I can have two full sets.

Coxe · February 18, 2007 1:12AM

Without a doubt it is both collectible and valuable. In a PCGS slab it is even moreso. I an NGC slab (since they were not ever doing them) it would be fantastic.

You got one?

Rampage · February 18, 2007 1:13AM

<< Without a doubt it is both collectible and valuable. In a PCGS slab it is even moreso. I an NGC slab (since they were not ever doing them) it would be fantastic.

You got one? >>

Three of my Micro-Os are in ANACS slabs.

Wolf359 · February 18, 2007 1:38AM

I have them all in PCGS slabs. Still searching for the recent 1901-O Micro O discovery.

Coxe · February 18, 2007 5:20AM

I have been looking for the 1901-o micro too (among others). If you find one, we need to figure out which obverse die was used for the counterfeit template.

moosesr · February 18, 2007 6:00AM

I haven't heard of a 1901-O mirco O before,whats the story on its recent discovery?

Coxe · February 18, 2007 6:03AM

It (1901-o) was found at a show a couple years ago in a junk box, if memory serves me. Apparently, either it wasn't shown to Leroy or he declined to add it. I would be surprised if the latter though as he has a keen interest into all of them.

Rampage · February 18, 2007 6:16AM

Actually, about two years, The Executive Coin Company (tecc1 or tecc?) sold one on eBay. The first time around, it got yanked by eBay. The second time, it went all the way. The coin sold for about $175 if I recall correctly. I was unaware of a second one turning up at a junk box. I still check for those, too, but have not been lucky.....yet.

Yale68 · February 18, 2007 9:51AM

Yes, I recall the ebay auction with the 1901-O (micro) by The Executive Coin Co. I was surprised that there was little interest in the coin. It was VG and look impaired, but i still thought it would be an interesting pick-up. But then at the last minute I decided not to bid, probably because I had been spending beyond my budget that week.

By the way, I still don't buy the counterfeit micro O arguments. I think its more likely that they were made inside the mint by an employee experimenting with the same reverse die from year to year. I know that if I were involved in a counterfeiting scheme, I would have made enough to make it worthwhile (the micro O's are quite scarce). And furthermore, why would I bother to change the obverse die?? Makes no sense.

dcarr · February 18, 2007 11:28AM

<< Yes, I recall the ebay auction with the 1901-O (micro) by The Executive Coin Co. I was surprised that there was little interest in the coin. It was VG and look impaired, but i still thought it would be an interesting pick-up. But then at the last minute I decided not to bid, probably because I had been spending beyond my budget that week.

By the way, I still don't buy the counterfeit micro O arguments. I think its more likely that they were made inside the mint by an employee experimenting with the same reverse die from year to year. I know that if I were involved in a counterfeiting scheme, I would have made enough to make it worthwhile (the micro O's are quite scarce). And furthermore, why would I bother to change the obverse die?? Makes no sense. >>

I found a 1902-O micro-O in a loose batch of dollars offered by a dealer at a coin show last year. Even without seeing the recent publicity relating to these, I thought it was counterfeit. It had many characteristics of a die-struck fake. So I believe that they are counterfeits (privately-minted outside the US Mint). By the way, most of these micro-o dollars have weak details and probably looked circulated even when brand new. The one I found technically graded problem-free EF-45 due to the amont of "mint" luster remaining. But at arms length, it looked more like a VF. I sold it on eBay (long after they were all declared counterfiet by the major grading services). It sold for about $850.

Coxe · February 18, 2007 11:31AM

<< 

<< Yes, I recall the ebay auction with the 1901-O (micro) by The Executive Coin Co. I was surprised that there was little interest in the coin. It was VG and look impaired, but i still thought it would be an interesting pick-up. But then at the last minute I decided not to bid, probably because I had been spending beyond my budget that week.

By the way, I still don't buy the counterfeit micro O arguments. I think its more likely that they were made inside the mint by an employee experimenting with the same reverse die from year to year. I know that if I were involved in a counterfeiting scheme, I would have made enough to make it worthwhile (the micro O's are quite scarce). And furthermore, why would I bother to change the obverse die?? Makes no sense. >>

I found a 1902-O micro-O in a loose batch of dollars offered by a dealer at a coin show last year. Even without seeing the recent publicity relating to these, I thought it was counterfeit. It had many characteristics of a die-struck fake. So I believe that they are counterfeits (privately-minted outside the US Mint). By the way, most of these micro-o dollars have weak details and probably looked circulated even when brand new. The one I found technically graded problem-free EF-45 due to the amont of "mint" luster remaining. But at arms length, it looked more like a VF. I sold it on eBay (long after they were all declared counterfiet by the major grading services). It sold for about $850. >>

Yeah, and I was your winning bidder on that one. It is a solid XF and the finest one I have ever seen. I have two 1902-O micros, that one and a F12 in a PCGS holder (that I had paid even more for a while back before that). Great cherypick you made on that BTW!

And the one I bought from you was $830 including delivery. It was a good price and I know of one other bidder (who congratulated me on the win) who wished he had bid stronger.

RichieURich · February 18, 2007 11:34AM

<< Yes, I recall the ebay auction with the 1901-O (micro) by The Executive Coin Co. I was surprised that there was little interest in the coin. It was VG and look impaired, but i still thought it would be an interesting pick-up. But then at the last minute I decided not to bid, probably because I had been spending beyond my budget that week.

By the way, I still don't buy the counterfeit micro O arguments. I think its more likely that they were made inside the mint by an employee experimenting with the same reverse die from year to year. I know that if I were involved in a counterfeiting scheme, I would have made enough to make it worthwhile (the micro O's are quite scarce). And furthermore, why would I bother to change the obverse die?? Makes no sense. >>

Does anyone have a link to the 1901-o micro o dollar auction mentioned here?

Coxe · February 18, 2007 11:36AM

The auction is long gone and I didn't save a mirror copy of it. Anyone note who won it though?

messydesk · February 18, 2007 11:38AM

The auction is too old for a link to work anymore. I think a lot of people were asleep at the wheel on that one, otherwise it would have sold for a lot more.

Rampage · February 18, 2007 12:11PM

Yeah, after two years, the auction is long gone. You might want to try to email the seller and see if they still have pictures of it. I doubt it though, but you never know. For $175, I wish I would have bid. For some damn reason I thought the prices would rappidly fall, because it was about the same time the services declared them counterfeit. I thought prices might fall the $40.00 or so. Guess I was wrong.

Wolf359 · February 19, 2007 4:09AM

By the way, I still don't buy the counterfeit micro O arguments. I think its more likely that they were made inside the mint by an employee experimenting with the same reverse die from year to year. I know that if I were involved in a counterfeiting scheme, I would have made enough to make it worthwhile (the micro O's are quite scarce). And furthermore, why would I bother to change the obverse die?? Makes no sense.

Could very well have been an inside job.

I believe the 1880-O Micro and 1899-O Micro O (both geniune) used the same reverse die
19 years apart so, it's possible. Leroy thinks a coin was copied using a transfer method to create obverse and reverse dies, that explains the non-mint style sloping rim edges into the surface. However. couldn't very low/inadequate striking pressure produce the same effect?

Coxe · February 19, 2007 7:31AM

Inadequate flow due poor striking pressure using a decent production die may very well be indistinguishable from poor transfer to a new die from a struck coin as the allegations suggest. The charge of counterfeiting is supported by noted features that are likely surface problems on aa coin used to create such a die. It would be refuted by the lack of die touch up work, necessary for this type of transfer creation. Looking at my 1902-O VAM-3, something noteworthy is that there are noted deficiencies in both the raised devices (like date digits) and the incuse LIBERTY. That is more suggestive of the counterfeit scenario. Also consider that the obverse dies used do not correspond to ones for the dates used on other known New Orleans issues. Suspected obverses are for other mints. That opens up a can of worms that several of us are aware of and looking for other counterfeits possibly produced using those other mints' transferred reverses as well. One to consider is the 1900-o micro o. The near date original die is not the same as the only New Orleans candidate, which was one of the O/CC VAMs. It is clear by the precise date digits' placements. It does possibly match one of another mint's 1900 obverse. Too many people have been concentrating on the reverses.

Wolf359 · February 19, 2007 7:46AM

Suspected obverses are for other mints.

I could interpret that to mean the mint worker who made these did so in Philadelphia, and used other dies, going out the door, so no one
locally would suspect anything. Whatever he produced, was lousy quality, but fooled people for a long time.

Coxe · February 19, 2007 7:50AM

The 1880-o reverse had gone out the door LONG before such an inside job could be done for the dates in question.

It doesn't matter what the true status is on these as long as they can continue to be freely traded and sold without government interference. They should continue to be highly desirable and moreso in slabs if they are considered counterfeits.

VAM'ers..about the 1896-O small "O" VAM-4

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VAM'ers..about the 1896-O small &quot;O&quot; VAM-4

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VAM'ers..about the 1896-O small "O" VAM-4