Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."
The question needs to be asked and then probably tossed aside as irrelevant----and that my friends will only prove TO YOURSELF/OURSELF that we really do wear rose colored glasses and drink the Kool-Aid................
If this coin would now be residing in an NGC slab would there be more replies to this thread and have some of you/us decided to remain quiet instead of voicing your opinions/feelings about this situation.
THIS coin has OBVIOUSLY been altered--AT'd--enhanced---fill in your own words--- and is now in a PCGS slab-------
Your silence--my silence --speaks volumes
BE FREAKIN HONEST to yourself at least..................
Just in case anyone wants to read a recent example of a thread that highlights a questionable coin-----notice I said questionable not a real open and shut case like the coin in the PCGS slab is-- just read some of the responses in this thread AT coin in NGC SLAB
I am curious where all these people are with their obviously strong opinions?????
A lot of members may not be around this weekend. Several shows going on. I'd rather see someone from PCGS post to the thread with some info, comments, anything. This is probably a private matter, but I'd like to know what the person that now owns this coin is going to do.
Your silence--my silence --speaks volumes BE FREAKIN HONEST to yourself at least..................
this is a topic i've been rather outspoken about in the past and it doesn't matter who the offender is or what company is ID'd by the plastic enclosed tag. we go 'round and 'round about what should be done, what can't be done, why it won't be done and who isn't going to do it. it's rather pathetic.
Please someone tell me I'm a 100% wrong. I want to be. But my greatest fear with this stuff is someone is going to get burnt big time...just like this coin here...and they are going to go "not quite right" in the head. Then they are going to show up somewhere, possibly at a coin show, looking for revenge. And the stuff we see in the news day in and day out of what pizzed off people do, well you don't even need to use your imagination to visualize what scenario could come now.
<< <i>When we get a new title to the thread such as "How did this AT POS end up in a PCGS holder", then I suspect the posts will roll. >>
HaHaHa TDN---I think that Andy might start a new thread asking if the title should be changed or asking for thoughts about a new title, but as for a new title----I don't think Andy likes to stir a pot that big
Looking at the close up picture of the coin white, shows the significant number of hairlines the coin has, and goes back to adrian comment that it is impossible to grade PF coins such as this from photo's. Someone did a very good job on working the surface and color to hide those hailines, and other issues with the coin. Even though I and a few others thought the toning looked AT, it passed by a lot of folks going soley by images. In fact, the photo andy posted looked so good, it lead me to beleive the coin graded higher than it did, although I wasnt sold on the color.
I know of one dealer in Alabama who quietly knows somebody in the industry who does this exact color adding and surface working to coins. He has told me that he has made ungodley sums of money bringing back coins that were considered not holderable, and even some from NCS holders, then places them in national auctions to move them.
When we get a new title to the thread such as "How did this AT POS end up in a PCGS holder", then I suspect the posts will roll.
Excuse me, but this is an 1839 Gobrecht Dollar. It is a great coin, not a "POS".
As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63.
Also, keep in mind that this isn't an 81-S Morgan in 65 with AT Godzilla toning at $3500. Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. In fact, they may discount the coin because the color is "off".
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Looking at the close up picture of the coin white, shows the significant number of hairlines the coin has, and goes back to adrian comment that it is impossible to grade PF coins such as this from photo's. Someone did a very good job on working the surface and color to hide those hailines, and other issues with the coin. Even though I and a few others thought the toning looked AT, it passed by a lot of folks going soley by images. In fact, the photo andy posted looked so good, it lead me to beleive the coin graded higher than it did, although I wasnt sold on the color.
I know of one dealer in Alabama who quietly knows somebody in the industry who does this exact color adding and surface working to coins. He has told me that he has made ungodley sums of money bringing back coins that were considered not holderable, and even some from NCS holders, then places them in national auctions to move them. >>
Now if we don't find out who the dealer is then ALL dealer's in Alabama are suspect.
<< <i>As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63. >>
I disagree! For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy.
For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy.
You're assuming that the coin should not have been holdered?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
-- "Excuse me, but this is an 1839 Gobrecht Dollar. It is a great coin, not a 'POS'." --
TDN was merely suggesting (with tongue in cheek) a title to spark the thread.
-- "As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63." --
You can't equate this coin and the bulk of what PCGS grades. Some mistakes are bigger and less excusable than others. I wondered myself whether the graders were fooled or saw the problems and called the coin "market acceptable" anyway. Either scenario isn't pretty.
-- "Also, keep in mind that this isn't an 81-S Morgan in 65 with AT Godzilla toning at $3500. Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. In fact, they may discount the coin because the color is 'off'." --
The premium isn't for the toning except insofar as covers a cleaning that resulted in a no-grade at NGC and a net 50 at NCS. The premium came to about $26K.
<< <i>For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy.
You're assuming that the coin should not have been holdered? >>
This coin has proven to be AT'd. It should not have been holdered! PCGS could have determined this for themselves with a little research of recent auctions.
<< <i>For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy. >>
You're assuming that the coin should not have been holdered? >>
It was in a perfectly acceptable NCS holder before. An ANACS holder with a details grade would be ok as well. A net-graded PCGS holder is a different story.
<< <i>Jumping $26k in value after it was worked is chicken feed.
The point was that most PCGS 63 1839 Gobrechts would bring comparable money. There is no premium for the toning. >>
That's an obfuscation of the real issue, and you know it. The coin was not worth what it brought, regardless of whether or not a problem free example of the same grade is of similar value. It more than doubled in price ONLY because it was doctored.
Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color?
<<< As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63. >>>
I don't think so, I think it was just a mistake.
<<< Also, keep in mind that this isn't an 81-S Morgan in 65 with AT Godzilla toning at $3500. Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. >>>
As with most professionally done artifcially colored coins, the toning is not applied to enhance the coins value for the color, but rather to hide other problems which was also clearly the case here.
<< <i>Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color? >>
That's certainly possible, but looking at the full sized before images I find it unlikely. The coin has massive hairlining that would seem to preclude any grade higher than the PR63 it received.
<< <i>Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color? >>
That's certainly possible, but looking at the full sized before images I find it unlikely. The coin has massive hairlining that would seem to preclude any grade higher than the MS63 it received.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, then, perhaps it was a waste of time ATing it as the coin might have 63'ed at PCGS without it. OTOH, the toning might fool someone into thinking that the coin was a more attractive and original and yield the seller more money.
I still get a kick out of the fact that a mid-five figure coin can be worked, reworked, and rereworked and get holdered, while a three hundred dollar common date gold coin that was lightly cleaned and looks pretty decent gets bagged.
<< <i>Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color? >>
With both improper cleaning and AT, I would prefer to see a details grade or no grade.
I still get a kick out of the fact that a mid-five figure coin can be worked, reworked, and rereworked and get holdered, while a three hundred dollar common date gold coin that was lightly cleaned and looks pretty decent gets bagged.
That's only because it doesn't pay to rerework the three hundred dollar coins.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Comments
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Jerry
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>PR64 is my guess, maybe PR65, but I'm not too keen on the color. >>
What Rich said, except I rather like the color.
(Which goes to show what I know- too bad it's artificial).
If this coin would now be residing in an NGC slab would there be more replies to this thread and have some of you/us decided to remain quiet instead of voicing your opinions/feelings about this situation.
THIS coin has OBVIOUSLY been altered--AT'd--enhanced---fill in your own words--- and is now in a PCGS slab-------
Your silence--my silence --speaks volumes
BE FREAKIN HONEST to yourself at least..................
I am curious where all these people are with their obviously strong opinions?????
Hmmmm?
Kool-Aid anyone???
Jerry
BE FREAKIN HONEST to yourself at least..................
this is a topic i've been rather outspoken about in the past and it doesn't matter who the offender is or what company is ID'd by the plastic enclosed tag. we go 'round and 'round about what should be done, what can't be done, why it won't be done and who isn't going to do it. it's rather pathetic.
<< <i>Taking 3 pages to let the cat out of the bag might have something to do with it.... >>
That might explain the slow start; but, at this point, I'd guess that there are at least 10 PMs for every post to this thread.
Jerry
-David
<< <i>When we get a new title to the thread such as "How did this AT POS end up in a PCGS holder", then I suspect the posts will roll.
HaHaHa TDN---I think that Andy might start a new thread asking if the title should be changed or asking for thoughts about a new title, but as for a new title----I don't think Andy likes to stir a pot that big
I know of one dealer in Alabama who quietly knows somebody in the industry who does this exact color adding and surface working to coins. He has told me that he has made ungodley sums of money bringing back coins that were considered not holderable, and even some from NCS holders, then places them in national auctions to move them.
<< <i>When we get a new title to the thread such as "How did this AT POS end up in a PCGS holder", then I suspect the posts will roll.
LMAO! Great idea!
ttt to match
Excuse me, but this is an 1839 Gobrecht Dollar. It is a great coin, not a "POS".
As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63.
Also, keep in mind that this isn't an 81-S Morgan in 65 with AT Godzilla toning at $3500. Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. In fact, they may discount the coin because the color is "off".
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Looking at the close up picture of the coin white, shows the significant number of hairlines the coin has, and goes back to adrian comment that it is impossible to grade PF coins such as this from photo's. Someone did a very good job on working the surface and color to hide those hailines, and other issues with the coin. Even though I and a few others thought the toning looked AT, it passed by a lot of folks going soley by images. In fact, the photo andy posted looked so good, it lead me to beleive the coin graded higher than it did, although I wasnt sold on the color.
I know of one dealer in Alabama who quietly knows somebody in the industry who does this exact color adding and surface working to coins. He has told me that he has made ungodley sums of money bringing back coins that were considered not holderable, and even some from NCS holders, then places them in national auctions to move them. >>
Now if we don't find out who the dealer is then ALL dealer's in Alabama are suspect.
Jerry
<< <i>When we get a new title to the thread such as "How did this AT POS end up in a PCGS holder", then I suspect the posts will roll. >>
. . . along with some heads.
I though all dealers were already suspect.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63. >>
I disagree! For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy.
You're assuming that the coin should not have been holdered?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. >>
Good point. Jumping $26k in value after it was worked is chicken feed.
Russ, NCNE
TDN was merely suggesting (with tongue in cheek) a title to spark the thread.
-- "As for PCGS holdering the thing, it's no big deal. You holder 10 million coins, you're going to make some mistakes. And maybe it wasn't even a mistake. Maybe the graders considered the coin to be "market acceptable" as a 63." --
You can't equate this coin and the bulk of what PCGS grades. Some mistakes are bigger and less excusable than others. I wondered myself whether the graders were fooled or saw the problems and called the coin "market acceptable" anyway. Either scenario isn't pretty.
-- "Also, keep in mind that this isn't an 81-S Morgan in 65 with AT Godzilla toning at $3500. Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. In fact, they may discount the coin because the color is 'off'." --
The premium isn't for the toning except insofar as covers a cleaning that resulted in a no-grade at NGC and a net 50 at NCS. The premium came to about $26K.
<< <i>For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy.
You're assuming that the coin should not have been holdered? >>
This coin has proven to be AT'd. It should not have been holdered! PCGS could have determined this for themselves with a little research of recent auctions.
<< <i>
<< <i>For coins this rare, along with the fee structuring at PCGS, I would think that they would take the extra time to look at the coin closely and do a little detective work to determine its legacy. >>
You're assuming that the coin should not have been holdered? >>
It was in a perfectly acceptable NCS holder before. An ANACS holder with a details grade would be ok as well. A net-graded PCGS holder is a different story.
The point was that most PCGS 63 1839 Gobrechts would bring comparable money. There is no premium for the toning.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
You've never tried selling NCS coins, have you?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Now if we don't find out who the dealer is then ALL dealer's in Alabama are suspect.
I though all dealers were already suspect. >>
Maybe some people suspect all dealers but I don't. Dealers like Dale Williams, Dennis Tarrant, and Julian are not suspect at all.
Jerry
<< <i>Jumping $26k in value after it was worked is chicken feed.
The point was that most PCGS 63 1839 Gobrechts would bring comparable money. There is no premium for the toning. >>
That's an obfuscation of the real issue, and you know it. The coin was not worth what it brought, regardless of whether or not a problem free example of the same grade is of similar value. It more than doubled in price ONLY because it was doctored.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>It was in a perfectly acceptable NCS holder before.
You've never tried selling NCS coins, have you? >>
I have. They sell just like ANACS net graded coins sell - at a suitable value for the condition of the coin.
Russ, NCNE
It may be more accurate to say that the coin first sold for less than half its real value because it was not toned.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>It more than doubled in price ONLY because it was doctored.
It may be more accurate to say that the coin first sold for less than half its real value because it was not toned. >>
Good one.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Jumping $26k in value after it was worked is chicken feed.
The point was that most PCGS 63 1839 Gobrechts would bring comparable money. There is no premium for the toning. >>
Forget the toning---what about the net grade for the cleaning?
Lots of slabbed 63s have been cleaned. They just don't look too cleaned.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Forget the toning---what about the net grade for the cleaning?
Lots of slabbed 63s have been cleaned. They just don't look too cleaned. >>
Did this one look "too cleaned" before it was .....worked on????
<< <i><< Forget the toning---what about the net grade for the cleaning?
Lots of slabbed 63s have been cleaned. They just don't look too cleaned. >>
Did this one look "too cleaned" before it was .....worked on???? >>
Of course it did. If not, it would have been in an NGC holder instead of an NCS holder.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i><< Forget the toning---what about the net grade for the cleaning?
Lots of slabbed 63s have been cleaned. They just don't look too cleaned. >>
Did this one look "too cleaned" before it was .....worked on???? >>
Of course it did. If not, it would have been in an NGC holder instead of an NCS holder.
Russ, NCNE >>
Yeah---that WAS my point....
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Yeah, I know. But I figured it needed expansion.
Russ, NCNE >>
I don't think so, I think it was just a mistake.
<<< Also, keep in mind that this isn't an 81-S Morgan in 65 with AT Godzilla toning at $3500. Nobody paid or is going to pay a big premium for the toning on the Gobrecht. >>>
As with most professionally done artifcially colored coins, the toning is not applied to enhance the coins value for the color, but rather to hide other problems which was also clearly the case here.
<< <i>Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color? >>
That's certainly possible, but looking at the full sized before images I find it unlikely. The coin has massive hairlining that would seem to preclude any grade higher than the PR63 it received.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color? >>
That's certainly possible, but looking at the full sized before images I find it unlikely. The coin has massive hairlining that would seem to preclude any grade higher than the MS63 it received.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, then, perhaps it was a waste of time ATing it as the coin might have 63'ed at PCGS without it. OTOH, the toning might fool someone into thinking that the coin was a more attractive and original and yield the seller more money.
I still get a kick out of the fact that a mid-five figure coin can be worked, reworked, and rereworked and get holdered, while a three hundred dollar common date gold coin that was lightly cleaned and looks pretty decent gets bagged.
<< <i>Has anyone considered the possibility that PCGS would have slabbed the coin without the AT job, and at a higher grade, and net-graded the coin due to the funky color? >>
With both improper cleaning and AT, I would prefer to see a details grade or no grade.
That's only because it doesn't pay to rerework the three hundred dollar coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.