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A undipped white CHB, is it possible?
Kennewickman
Posts: 329
The color on the coin is only visible under intense lighting, to the human eye, it looks white with nice luster. What do you think?
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<< <i>What do you think? >>
I think you have a dipped example of 1826 O-110 in AU-55 to 58.
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<< <i>What do you think? >>
I think you have a dipped example of 1826 O-110 in AU-55 to 58. >>
That is what I think also.
Silver that old should be almost black unless it was kept in a oxygen free environment.
Wally
I think this coin was lightly dipped, but it's still very attractive.
<< <i>He also said it was unmessed with, I guess that did not include dipping. >>
Clearly, dipping is "messing" with it, but not to the point of being unslabbable unless it was dipped so badly and/or severely that it's a completely dull, lifeless coin devoid of all luster. That's not the case with this one.
From what I've read halves from that period in time were mostly stored in bank vaults and used in bank to bank transactions. Wouldn't a CBH from a bag (like Morgans) still be untoned?
Just my thoughts.
Wally
where as morgans were stored in canvas bags?
<< <i>OKbustchaser...I think you are correct, about the dipping. Seller said it is a O-106-A, and R-3 variety. He also said it was unmessed with, I guess that did not include dipping.
Wally >>
On second look, it does seem to be 106a. I can see bits of the revers die crack between STATES and OF. That will teach me to attribute these based on memory rather than the book.
As for unmessed with...dipped, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. Just because a coin is "original" does not mean it is attractive. Properly done, dipping can greatly improve the looks of many coins.
<< <i>OKbustchaser...I think you are correct, about the dipping. Seller said it is a O-106-A, and R-3 variety. He also said it was unmessed with, I guess that did not include dipping. >>
That coin is so NOT dipped. Here's a larger, clearer scan of the obverse for those who might not be able to see it as well in the first set of pictures. Yes, I was the original seller and when I said it was unmessed with that certainly meant it had not been dipped as well. And if anyone is more upfront and knowledgeable about originality (or lack thereof) than us I can't think of who. Don't let the uninformed opinions of chatroom participants sway your comfort level on that coin, it's "all there" and very sweet. Compare it with some of theirs some time.
There are some, not many, early coins that have never been dipped and are still what I would call white.
Look inside the hair curls just in front of the cap ribbon tie and you'll see a dark brown "crust". This is also evident inside both loops of the 8, the loop of the 6 and inside the curl of the 2. Some is also visible in Y of LIBERTY. The drapery clasp has this crust deep inside it's two border lines. On the revers look at R, B and U2 of PLURIBUS. All have the same crust inside. Also look at the O of OF and first A in AMERICA.
These are deep recesses of the devices and are notorious for being the only places on a dipped coin to retain some of it's original crust.
All that being said. It's a nice coin and has nice eye appeal. Just because it has been dipped doesn't neccesarily mean something horrible. A skilled dipper can perform a dip and result in few or no negative effects on the coin. Including having luster remain throughout the dip.
That's my two cents on this fifty cents...
What are you basing your "OPINION" on?
uninformed chatroom participants wish to know.
As for the question of completely white and completely original Bust halves, I don't think I've ever seen one. However, I've seen many silver world coins of that era and earlier that are completely original fresh white, so I know that Capped Bust halves could theoretically exist the same way. (Most of the world coins I refer to likely came from roll finds and hoards, where the surfaces of the coins were protected by other coins.)
Edited to add that I know of a roll of 1835 half dimes that surfaced perhaps 30 years ago, and those coins were fresh frosty white gems. I handled one of those coins a few years ago. It graded NGC 68 on the first try.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Good observation Gladiator.
Dirt hides in the crevices and dipping does not get it out. A coin can also be gently washed with warm soap and water using a fine soft toothbrush in order to get the dirt out and make the coin white. (There are also more subtle ways.) I imagine many a certified MS coin has been washed more than once.
Q. David Bowers allows for soaking in acetone and gently washing it off. With a soft brush??
The real test on virgin surfaces is whether the toning, no matter how slight, is original and whether the die flow lines or die impressions are undisturbed. Under a glass or scope die flow lines can be analyzed to see if they are intact and undisturbed.
Too much dipping can wash out a coin because ultimately it takes a little bite out of the surface each time. Eventually it looks like corrosion if put under a high power scope. To the naked eye a person may not notice the first signs of dipping corrosion. But once the fresh die impressions start to decompose by acid the coin starts losing it's luster.
Essentially, the die flow lines act as hundreds of little mirrors on edge. When the light hits these mirrors you get cartwheel luster. Disturb these by wear or acid and the luster starts to fade.
When a bust half is struck with a freshly polished die there may not be much in the way of die flow lines but the minute die impression made under extreme pressure is imprinted on the surface of the coin. Disturb the surface by wear or acid and you get the same effect as above.
So the bottom line on the 1826 is; " how are the surfaces under a magnification." A truthfully, pure white is improbable after 181 years.
Enough for now.
Alabaster Carp - KHS graduate.
Wally
Class of 63 but I keep my identity under wraps. Ask Dave Swanson aka Lepto Spirosis on the old KHS forum.
<< <i>I'm a KHS graduate too, Kennewick High School, class of 1962
Wally >>
OT - Kennewick WA? Just wondering, I live in Hermiston OR. Hoping i can find some good coin shops in the area.
Just to be clear, it's not "corrosion", it's "erosion". Picture a coin's flow lines as sharp ridges of sand carved onto the beach. Every time a wave moves over the sand, the sand ridges are eroded. So it goes with an acid dip on the flow lines of a coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mr. Eureka
Well technically it would look more like rain drops on sand. The acid attacks the impurities and base metals that are mixed in the silver first, and in that sense it is not an uniform wearing down like a wave would cause in sand. But of coures we are both talking the same language. We are merely splitting hairs but sometimes hair splitting is a worthy exercise.
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AC
While I agree to a large extent, I will say - to help people visualize the damage - that under a scanning electron microscope, the damage will look like erosion. (Scott Travers showed me before and after photos of this effect 20 years ago and it made quite an impression on me.) Of course, if you look closer and closer, sooner or later you're only going to see individual grains of sand.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Wally
Well said.
"WELL SAID" as to MR. EUREKA........ "While I agree to a large extent, I will say - to help people visualize the damage - that under a scanning electron microscope, the damage will look like erosion. (Scott Travers showed me before and after photos of this effect 20 years ago and it made quite an impression on me.) Of course, if you look closer and closer, sooner or later you're only going to see individual grains of sand."
I really do not know anything about the COIN DEALER in KENNEWICK in response to Kennewickman.
Sorry for the confusion.
AC
Having said that, compare its look to some older but "known original" white-ish coins with skin, perhaps some classic commems of known provenance. That is what such coins look like. So, while there is no way to be really sure, it is certainly plausible that the coin in question has never been messed with in any way. Sure, most CBH's spent some time in environments that make them crusty, but there were after all tens of millions of them produced. Just as there are stark white 120-year-old Morgan dollars that are that way simply on account of where they spent their time, probability suggests there are probably some nice white skinned CBH's as well. I would buy that one as original, based on what I see.
Do you think the Eliasberg 1807 Draped Bust Quarter has been dipped?
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Elwood
We could ask Walter Breen or John J Ford, but I am not ready to pay them a visit yet.
AC