Morgan VAM Quiz... and a mystery (mystery posted)

DennisH · January 25, 2007 2:57PM

Quiz: The photo below is of a 1921-P Morgan (PCGS-graded MS63). Two questions:
-- Do you know what VAM it is?
-- Please bear with me... Are you sure?

After a few folks have had a chance to see this photo I will post the mystery part of this message

Wolf359 · January 25, 2007 3:54PM

Yes. And No.

They seem polished down.

Coxe · January 25, 2007 6:39PM

Naturally, you are expecting VAM-27A EDS.

If not, perhaps VAM-29 if the obverse differs?

nesvt · January 25, 2007 8:45PM

When you figure it out, please let me know... 'cuz I have the same coin.

Thought it was a 27A, but it has the diagnostics of the VAM 13.

I had posted some images here, but removed them due to limited space. If I ever get out of work, I'll retrieve my pics off of CD and restore.

messydesk · January 25, 2007 11:07PM

1. Marks don't seem to line up with either VAM 25 or VAM 27, so the answer is no.
2. Yes.

DennisH · January 25, 2007 11:22PM

Thanks for the replies! Now here's the mystery:

When I found this coin at the November Santa Clara show, along with four 1921 VAM 27A LDS and VLDS, I diagnosed it as a VAM 27A EDS/MDS. When I showed it to Jeff Oxman, he agreed. (Neither of us, however, looked at the reeds.)

When I sent all of the coins to PCGS for grading and attribution, this one came back as a plain old 1921-P. E-mails back and forth to Mike Faraone resulted in him inviting me to bring the coin along the next time I was in the PCGS offices, and we'd take it out of the holder and have a look. That's what we did yesterday. (Thanks Mike. That was an awfully nice thing to do!)

The surprising thing to both of us is, that although the the coin has die flakes indicating it is a VAM 27A in EDS/MDS, the reeds are in fact not infrequent at all. Has anyone else also run into this sort of thing... die markers for an infrequent reeding VAM, but having normal reed count?

I've also sent this photo to Jeff and to Leroy, asking the same question. I'll keep you posted as to what they have to say.

Wolf359 · January 26, 2007 12:02AM

Hmmm. You'll have to compare it with 27A/29, under a scope, to make sure they are the
same obverse/reverse. Rob, I or Leroy could help you there. If so, I think you may have found the transistion point where wide reeds went into use!

Please keep us posted.

DennisH · January 26, 2007 12:40AM

Jeff apparently stays up late at night, because this reply from him was waiting for me this morning. Nothing conclusive here, but it still leaves open an exciting possibility:

"if the reeding is normal, I would first compare this reverse die to that of the VAM 27. If it's the same, then you may have a major discovery. If not, then it may be related to an already listed variety. In either case, it appears to be something new."

Jack, I'm still waiting to hear back from Leroy, but I'll plan on sending the coin to you for closer inspection sometime soon.

messydesk · January 26, 2007 12:56AM

OK, silly question. Is it a D1 or D2 reverse? What you may have found is a reverse die used in the same presses around the same time as the VAM 25 and 27. If those two dies were damaged in almost the same way, it stands to reason that a third die could be as well. Then you could say that the press in which all three were installed had a thing for eating dies by means of a maladjusted feed mechanism. When you get the coin back, check the obverse for the VAM 25 or 27 diagnostics.

Coxe · January 26, 2007 2:17AM

The flakes are the same as the EDS for VAM-27A. Recall that the fine discrimination of the wide reeding is pretty recent. The first thing I would do is carefully examine the obverse to make sure it matches the IV21 for VAM-27. If it differs, it is probably a simple case of the reverse having been paired originally with a different obverse. It may or may not be a known variety as such, since the small flakes could easily have been missed. If the obverse is IV21, then this becomes much more interesting. In either case, the rarity may exceed the VAM-27A. We just aren't in a position to assess it yet. Let us know about the obverse and then we can all check ours. If IV21, then we all need to verify our reeds, which might be impossible for slabbed ones. If a different obverse, we should try to identify it and then check our VAM-27A specimens for the same differences. This could be fun.

DennisH · January 26, 2007 2:36AM

When I originally got the grade report from PCGS saying this was not an IR coin, I e-mailed Mike Faraone and asked if a mistake had been made. He went and got the coin from Shipping and reexamined the obverse and reverse. He said it was not a VAM 27 because there was no trace of doubling on Liberty's neck, chin, stars, etc. I do see long parallel die polishing lines (and die chips) inside the lower ear.

messydesk · January 26, 2007 6:18AM

In a PCGS slab, you should still be able to see the reeding on a dollar well enough to tell if it's IR or not.

DennisH · January 26, 2007 6:58AM

John:

Mike and I took the coin out of the holder down at PCGS (well, he did) and looked at it... it's absolutely not an IR. It's now back in a holder, and he wants to know what Leroy has to say.

Morgan VAM Quiz... and a mystery (mystery posted)

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