<< <i>Get a life people, there are crap coins in PCGS and NGC holders. Overgraded coins in both holders and undergraded coins in both. You people who paint the broad streak that NGC coins are always overgraded need to wake up and smell the coffee. If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they... Geeze, buy the COIN not the HOLDER! >>
I agree, however, you cannot dispute that fact that PCGS graded coins sell at a premium over NGC graded coins. Rare or modern crap, more so toward modern. The collectors lean towards PCGS. And that brings up a whole lot of other stuff, like marketing and the likes.
Brand loyalty is the way of the world, just look at Starbuck vs Peet's. Jamba Juice vs Juice it Up or Roebeck's.
However, Buy the coin, not the plastic is ringing truer and louder as I move along in this "hobby".
Mr Pharmer : I have already recieved 2 private messages warning me about you . I have seen many a post casting an unfavorable light on you . You seem to be the kid on the playground that nobody wants to play with . You have stalked me on these boards since my first post
I'd like to hear a little more about the stalking...
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
No one is perfect and no matter how great we think we are when it comes to grading, there is room for improvement. The side show in connection with the debate over what is overgraded and undergraded needs to be evaluated on a coin by coin (slab by slab) basis. Making broad generalizations which overgrades/undergrades in connection with the NGC/PCGS rivalry really is not wise because it seems there will be exceptions and some exceptions can be significant... end of story... there is no substitute for developing strong grading skills. It is a requirement to fully enjoy the hobby.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
True story...about 3 years ago, I CROSSED an ACG 64 Rainbow toned Morgan into a PCGS 66! Its not even that I thought it was undergraded - I said "cross at any MS grade"! I was hoping for at least an MS-62!
True story...about 3 years ago, I CROSSED an ACG 64 Rainbow toned Morgan into a PCGS 66! Its not even that I thought it was undergraded - I said "cross at any MS grade"! I was hoping for at least an MS-62!
Do you have pics of this morgan- I'd love to see them...
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>True story...about 3 years ago, I CROSSED an ACG 64 Rainbow toned Morgan into a PCGS 66! Its not even that I thought it was undergraded - I said "cross at any MS grade"! I was hoping for at least an MS-62!
Do you have pics of this morgan- I'd love to see them... >>
Not any more, I don't think. It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I knew it would flip for more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back.
It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I thought it knew it would flip more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back
Nice job!
My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable !
<< <i>It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I thought it knew it would flip more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back
Nice job! >>
Thanks. Definitely the exception to the ACG-rule but fun to recount. Thanks for asking.
<< <i>True story...about 3 years ago, I CROSSED an ACG 64 Rainbow toned Morgan into a PCGS 66! Its not even that I thought it was undergraded - I said "cross at any MS grade"! I was hoping for at least an MS-62!
Do you have pics of this morgan- I'd love to see them... >>
Not any more, I don't think. It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I knew it would flip for more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back.
Doug >>
If you recall the ANA Legal Defense Fund story about ebay seller "centsles", ACG would conseratively grade many of his coins, and receive a portion back as payment for grading fees. The ones taken back were then reholdered at higher grades. The coin you had may have been an original "centsles" ACG coin.
There is a problem at ALL grading services. You WILL find OVEGRADED coins in anyones holders. I don't think the fearless leaders of the services will deny that.
Both services have their good points and bad points. There are coins I would NEVER buy in a PCGS holder an those I would NEVER buy in an NGC holder.
Oh yeah, I wouldn't buy Modern junk in anyones holders!!
Even though we have become VERY dependent on plastic, you are still buying the coin itself. Remember that. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I hate to admit this, (actually it is a decent post for a change) but I agree with Laura, if one truly knows their series, there are OG'd coins in all the Top 3 holders. But........I have seen a trend to NGC giving a DCAM (UltraCam) out on some moderns that I wouldn't give out, and many times PCGS doesn't either....(not to say they haven't, but very very seldom) Then again, I have seen PCGS being more "soft" on the FS designation on Jeffs too, whereas NGC seems to be fairly strict. For a long time, I felt that ANACS was more even on the FS designation, good at varieties, NGC more accurate on gold, and PCGS kind of conservative on low end MS stuff as well as more cautious on toned stuff. Nowadays.....they have kind of melted together somewhat, and all seem to play the "crackout to get your grade" game......
But I do feel that the upper tier TPGs are all 'goo-goo' eyed when it comes to pieces that have famous pedigrees...JMHO...
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on; I don't do these things to other people, I require the same from them."
If I've had a bad morning (as a grader) with tons of AT'd coins, harshly cleaned coins, NCS'd coins, perhaps when I come across a genuine coin I might add a point or two to make a point or two or at least to reward a coin for its originality.
It's human nature, after all.
This exists in automobile appraisals, art appraisals, rare book valuations, etc., etc., which is why grading (of the moment, within the moment, in the now), has to be taken seriously and is guaranteed to generate almost predictable swings of market valuation.
A particular car can be hot in the summer, not in the winter... a coin can be hot until a hidden hoard is discovered or vastly better quality coins in that series hit the market. A way of appraising a particular series can be consistent until the market is considered to be over or under-graded or new information is (subjectively) received. No?...
Expert or collector opinions, (which is what we are discussing) are frequently modified with changes in personal perception, and unfortunately, opportunity.
So, I guess I agree with Marty. Buy the coin, not the plastic.
Actually, one of the nicest jobs that these forums do is to provide an interface for comparison of collector perceived grades on a particular coin vs "TPG official" grades. Bring on the "grade my coin " threads...
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
As a newbie, my first line of thought was how can the Mint NOT produce perfect coins for almost every strike?? I know nothing is ever perfect, even the machines they use. But the Mint has the original plates used to stamp every coin. In theory, shouldn't grading be based on the characteristics of those dies?
Being that the Mint has the original dies.... suppose the Mint started up its own grading service. It wouldn't be 3rd party anymore, but rather "1st party." I would think this would pretty much wipe out TPG altogether would it not?
<< <i>Not only are you using foul , purposely misspelled words, and inviting others to post pictures of the male genitalia ; but most disturbing to me is that you are mocking PCGS on their own site . More then a few members have gotten the boot for less. >>
<< Pitcher after pitcher of PCGS Kool-Aid is being consumed by this guy. ANACS beverage also at times. The well has run dry for NGC.
Untill NGC slabbed coins can be seen in hand this is exactly how it will stay. Way tooooo many dogs have been purchased sight unseen and this usually is not what happens with PCGS slabbed coins. Please notice that usually was used. >>
If we can agree that it's a bad thing for one TPG to dominate the industry, then what can be done about this?
Imagine being NGC here. Your "good works" in proper grading are "rewarded" with crackouts and crossovers to PCGS. Meanwhile, all your dogs stick to you. No matter how good you are, your mistakes stick with you and your good works are lost to the "PCGS or nothing" camp. The net effect is that you look way more incompetent than you really are. Would you like to be evaluated that way in your job?
I can't be the only one who thinks this is a bad thing for the hobby. And yet, this is what worshipping at the altar of PCGS is bringing us
I agree 100% with Ziggey. Too many collectors buy the plastic, Dealers profit from it. Per my experience, NGC is a great TPG for several reasons. One of which, they will attempt to work with you and listen to your opinion. PCGS takes the "we are god" approach. NGC doesn't have the reputation that they deserve. However, in some series, my experience is that they are too generous and those instances does effect there reputation. So long as collectors buy the plastic and not the coin, things will remain the same - as in FOREVER.
Comments
<< <i>Get a life people, there are crap coins in PCGS and NGC holders. Overgraded coins in both holders and undergraded coins in both. You people who paint the broad streak that NGC coins are always overgraded need to wake up and smell the coffee. If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they... Geeze, buy the COIN not the HOLDER! >>
I agree, however, you cannot dispute that fact that PCGS graded coins sell at a premium over NGC graded coins. Rare or modern crap, more so toward modern. The collectors lean towards PCGS. And that brings up a whole lot of other stuff, like marketing and the likes.
Brand loyalty is the way of the world, just look at Starbuck vs Peet's. Jamba Juice vs Juice it Up or Roebeck's.
However, Buy the coin, not the plastic is ringing truer and louder as I move along in this "hobby".
I'd like to hear a little more about the stalking...
No one is perfect and no matter how great we think we are when it comes to grading, there is room for improvement. The side show in connection with the debate over what is overgraded and undergraded needs to be evaluated on a coin by coin (slab by slab) basis. Making broad generalizations which overgrades/undergrades in connection with the NGC/PCGS rivalry really is not wise because it seems there will be exceptions and some exceptions can be significant... end of story... there is no substitute for developing strong grading skills. It is a requirement to fully enjoy the hobby.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Sometimes it is fun to play the game.
Doug
Do you have pics of this morgan- I'd love to see them...
<< <i>True story...about 3 years ago, I CROSSED an ACG 64 Rainbow toned Morgan into a PCGS 66! Its not even that I thought it was undergraded - I said "cross at any MS grade"! I was hoping for at least an MS-62!
Do you have pics of this morgan- I'd love to see them...
Not any more, I don't think. It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I knew it would flip for more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back.
Doug
Nice job!
<< <i>It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I thought it knew it would flip more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back
Nice job!
Thanks. Definitely the exception to the ACG-rule but fun to recount. Thanks for asking.
<< <i>
<< <i>True story...about 3 years ago, I CROSSED an ACG 64 Rainbow toned Morgan into a PCGS 66! Its not even that I thought it was undergraded - I said "cross at any MS grade"! I was hoping for at least an MS-62!
Do you have pics of this morgan- I'd love to see them...
Not any more, I don't think. It was a vibrant bag toned crescent rainbow obverse toner that I knew was natural and bought for $50 on eBay. I knew it would flip for more if in a PC holder in any MS condition...well, I was right! It went for $550 a couple weeks after I got it back.
Doug >>
If you recall the ANA Legal Defense Fund story about ebay seller "centsles", ACG would conseratively grade many of his coins, and receive a portion back as payment for grading fees. The ones taken back were then reholdered at higher grades. The coin you had may have been an original "centsles" ACG coin.
<< <i>Now this thread can hit 500!
There is a problem at ALL grading services. You WILL find OVEGRADED coins in anyones holders. I don't think the fearless leaders of the services will deny that.
Both services have their good points and bad points. There are coins I would NEVER buy in a PCGS holder an those I would NEVER buy in an NGC holder.
Oh yeah, I wouldn't buy Modern junk in anyones holders!!
Even though we have become VERY dependent on plastic, you are still buying the coin itself. Remember that. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
But I do feel that the upper tier TPGs are all 'goo-goo' eyed when it comes to pieces that have famous pedigrees...JMHO...
It's human nature, after all.
This exists in automobile appraisals, art appraisals, rare book valuations, etc., etc., which is why grading (of the moment, within the moment, in the now), has to be taken seriously and is guaranteed to generate almost predictable swings of market valuation.
A particular car can be hot in the summer, not in the winter... a coin can be hot until a hidden hoard is discovered or vastly better quality coins in that series hit the market. A way of appraising a particular series can be consistent until the market is considered to be over or under-graded or new information is (subjectively) received. No?...
Expert or collector opinions, (which is what we are discussing) are frequently modified with changes in personal perception, and unfortunately, opportunity.
So, I guess I agree with Marty. Buy the coin, not the plastic.
Actually, one of the nicest jobs that these forums do is to provide an interface for comparison of collector perceived grades on a particular coin vs "TPG official" grades. Bring on the "grade my coin " threads...
is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
Being that the Mint has the original dies.... suppose the Mint started up its own grading service. It wouldn't be 3rd party anymore, but rather "1st party." I would think this would pretty much wipe out TPG altogether would it not?
<< <i>Oh yeah, I wouldn't buy Modern junk in anyones holders!! >>
I was going to send you a bunch for your auctions... Oh well...
<< <i>Not only are you using foul , purposely misspelled words, and inviting others to post pictures of the male genitalia ; but most disturbing to me is that you are mocking PCGS on their own site . More then a few members have gotten the boot for less. >>
Uh oh, ID10T error!
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
PCGS undergrades... does that make you feel better, Marty
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Untill NGC slabbed coins can be seen in hand this is exactly how it will stay. Way tooooo many dogs have been purchased sight unseen and this usually is not what happens with PCGS slabbed coins. Please notice that usually was used. >>
If we can agree that it's a bad thing for one TPG to dominate the industry, then what can be done about this?
Imagine being NGC here. Your "good works" in proper grading are "rewarded" with crackouts and crossovers to PCGS. Meanwhile, all your dogs stick to you. No matter how good you are, your mistakes stick with you and your good works are lost to the "PCGS or nothing" camp. The net effect is that you look way more incompetent than you really are. Would you like to be evaluated that way in your job?
I can't be the only one who thinks this is a bad thing for the hobby. And yet, this is what worshipping at the altar of PCGS is bringing us
I agree 100% with Ziggey. Too many collectors buy the plastic, Dealers profit from it. Per my experience, NGC is a great TPG for several reasons. One of which, they will attempt to work with you and listen to your opinion. PCGS takes the "we are god" approach. NGC doesn't have the reputation that they deserve. However, in some series, my experience is that they are too generous and those instances does effect there reputation. So long as collectors buy the plastic and not the coin, things will remain the same - as in FOREVER.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website