Wow! neat Buffalo nickel error on Fred Weinberg's site

seanq · January 24, 2007 2:44AM

Can't say as I've ever seen one of these before:

Elliptical clipped 1920-S Buffalo Nickel

Fred, if the Powerball people come through tonite, I'l be on the phone first thing Thursday morning.

Sean Reynolds

jbsteven · January 24, 2007 2:47AM

be careful about buying stuff from Fred. He sometimes does the one way street with his coins. I offered a inexpensive coin to him that I purchased from him a few years ago and he made it very clear he had ZERO interest in buying it back.

commoncents05 · January 24, 2007 2:52AM

for expensive quality material, i would assume he would be interested in buying things back. if you buy something cheap and common, i don't blame him for having no interest in buying it back.

-Paul

commoncents05 · January 24, 2007 2:52AM

very cool elliptical planchet buff btw, awesome coin!!

-Paul

jbsteven · January 24, 2007 2:55AM

<< for expensive quality material, i would assume he would be interested in buying things back. if you buy something cheap and common, i don't blame him for having no interest in buying it back.

-Paul >>

$400 cracked plancet on a Bust half.

"Longest Crack Known" was on the slab in his writing.

holeinone1972 · January 24, 2007 2:55AM

Hey he paid 10k raw, spent 30 on getting it certified, and only marked it up $2970.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

LOL

I hope he gets it, but why state what you paid only to get a reaction just like mine?

Maybe I am just jealous, that I do not have those kind of duckets to spend.

CaptHenway · January 24, 2007 2:58AM

<< be careful about buying stuff from Fred. He sometimes does the one way street with his coins. I offered a inexpensive coin to him that I purchased from him a few years ago and he made it very clear he had ZERO interest in buying it back. >>

FWIW, and I realize that this is a different field, we sell BU statehood quarters over the counter, but do not buy them back.
TD

jbsteven · January 24, 2007 3:07AM

<< 

<< be careful about buying stuff from Fred. He sometimes does the one way street with his coins. I offered a inexpensive coin to him that I purchased from him a few years ago and he made it very clear he had ZERO interest in buying it back. >>

FWIW, and I realize that this is a different field, we sell BU statehood quarters over the counter, but do not buy them back.
TD >>

apples and oranges

LALASD4 · January 24, 2007 3:07AM

What he would buy back depends on what he want to stock.

Inventory turn over is very important to most dealers.

Now I have dealers who would neither give me a buy or sell price on coins, now that is frustrating.

FredWeinberg · January 24, 2007 4:16AM

Sean,

That Elliptical Clipped 1920-S Buffalo looked
10 times better raw - you could really see
the elliptical/oval shape. It was almost a
shame to have to slab it. It's unique as
far as I know, as a Buff. Nickel Elliptical.

Jason -

Regarding the Cracked Bust Half Dollar -
you offered it to me at the FUN show,
with the impression that you wanted
either what you paid for it, or close. If
I was incorrect, I'm sorry.

I buy alot of error coins in error collections
and groups - some of the cheaper ones I
put up on Ebay, and others I slab or sell,
but I might not have bought them as a
single coin, only in the group or lot. That
Bust Half Dollar Cracked Planchet is such
an item.

That Planchet Cracked Bust Dollar is a coin
I wasn't interested in re-stocking it again;
and I've learned from experience that
if someone believes I'll automatically
have a 85% or 90% buyback on every single
error coin that I sell, after a year
or two, it's best just to say "Thanks, but
I'm not interested in making an offer"
(or similar words I said to you at the show)

I can understand you wanting me to buy
it back, but I guess I should have asked
you why you bought it from me in the first
place.....

98% of the errors I sell go to collectors;
I buy more major mechanical errors than
anyone else in the country - but I don't
feel obligated to buy back EVERY coin that
I sell - and neither does any other dealer.

That Cracked Planchet Bust Half dollar is
an unusual coin - you must have either
had a customer for it, or thought it was
unusual enough for you to buy it yourself.

I'm sorry about your disspointment in my
lack of interest in the coin. I'm dissapointed
in your lack of wanting to keep it. I can
understand you wanting to sell coins that you
buy, but not to "dun" me because I didn't
want to buy one coin back from you.

Fred Weinberg

jbsteven · January 24, 2007 4:28AM

<< Sean,

Jason -

Regarding the Cracked Bust Half Dollar -
you offered it to me at the FUN show,
with the impression that you wanted
either what you paid for it, or close. If
I was incorrect, I'm sorry.

Fred Weinberg >>

For the record I NEVER stated ANYTHING about money. I asked if you wanted to buy the coin back, nothing more nothing less. You asked me how much I paid for it and I said $400. You stated "Why don't you put it in a Heritage sale". At this point I turned around and walked away.

Heck I even bought some other things from you at that same show. I was a happy customer but will never purchase anything from you again.

I guess some things work out and some things don't.

FredWeinberg · January 24, 2007 4:41AM

Jason,

Re-read what I said about buying coins in
lots or collections. That coin is an example.

I'm always sorry to lose a customer, but
I'm sure neither you nor I will
loose any sleep over your decison.

Byers · January 24, 2007 7:34AM

I've done business both ways with Fred Weinberg for over 30 years in mint errors. He's always been fair to me and has even bought back major errors if I decide to sell them later, or if I get one or a few back from a customer and decide not to keep them. Having been a full time coin dealer for almost 30 years, I know that I have sold "some" mint errors that came my way and was happy to make a sale, especially if it wasn't a mint error that I specialize in. It doesn't mean that I want to buy back everything everytime from everyone that I have ever sold to. Nor do I make any representation to the buyer or collector regarding a buy-back.

If it's a rare, expensive, unique or spectacular major mint error I will mention that I would like to be offered it back in the future if it is available. And these type of errors are what I deal in so I'm willing to re-stock it. But if it's a minor error, a duplicate, an obscure type of error, or one that is easily available to obtain I don't necessarily buy it back. Sometimes certain error coins come in a deal that I have to buy inorder to get what I really want in the deal or collection. If that is the case, I might sell it wholesale, blow it out or mention that it isn't the type of mint error that I regularly handle. Just because I sold a specific coin does not necessarily mean that I want to buy it back.

sinin1 · January 24, 2007 8:42AM

Fred, that is a cool coin

I am scratching my head on how the elliptical planchet originally occurred prestrike

did the nickel stock get backed up a little before the next punch with the planchet getting punched twice?

and how can you decide if that coin was or was not worth 10K when offered to you?

gonzer · January 24, 2007 8:44AM

Fred,
Saw you on the tube again starring in the special about the Mint. Damn, I'll never get used to seeing you in a tie!

Very GQ.

seanq · January 24, 2007 12:33PM

<< Fred, that is a cool coin

I am scratching my head on how the elliptical planchet originally occurred prestrike
did the nickel stock get backed up a little before the next punch with the planchet getting punched twice? >>

There were actually a few schools of thought on how elliptical planchets occur. For years Arnie Margolis put forth the theory that elliptical clips started out as incompletely punched planchets, and that the pressure of the strike caused the planchet to break into two pieces. The biggest problem with this theory is that you would expect the other piece of the planchet, which would be a struck crescent clip, to be as common as elliptical clips. In reality crescent clips are much less common than elliptical clips.

Another theory (which is more or less the one you put forth) holds that elliptical clips are created much like curved clips, with the planchet strip failing to advance between punches. If you're old enough to remember a dot matrix printer, picture what happened when the paper came off the tracks - instead of the lines of type being evenly spaced, they would print one on top of the other. If the metal strip slipped just slightly, the punch would overlap with the holes from the previous cycle, creating curved clips. If the metal strip slipped a lot, failing to advance at all or just barely moving, then this theory says the blanks from the previous cycle would not be able to clear the strip, and the next punch would not only cut the strip but also the blanks from the previous cycle. There are two problems with this theory: first, the blanks are supposed to be pushed down and out of the strip at the same time they are punched, they don't ride along and fall out it later; and second, this would create two crescent clips for every elliptical clip, a ratio even further out of whack with the empirical evidence.

The theory I think is the most plausible is that elliptical clips start as normal planchets, but instead of dropping from the strip they stick to the punch. Picture a cookie cutter being used on rolled out dough - most of the time when you lift the cutter the cookie remains on the counter, but once in a while it stays inside the cutter. Once the stuck blank was dislodged, it would be bouncing around loose on top of the planchet strip and under the punch. If the loose blank was then struck off-center by the punch, it would create as before an elliptical clip and a crescent clip. However, in this case the elliptical clip is being pushed down by the punch and cleared from the strip with the other blanks, while the crescent clip created by the punch would be remain on top of the strip, and eventually be carried away from the punches and scrapped. This is a very realistic chain of events, and it also helps explain why crescent clips are so much scarcer than elliptical clips.

At least that's how I've learned it... there's enough debate that Fred or Mike Diamond ('errromaven') may read this and say I'm full of baloney.

Sean Reynolds

errormaven · January 24, 2007 11:43PM

Hi Sean. The May/June 2005 Errorscope contains my article "On The Origin of Elliptical Clips" in which I dismantle Arnie's theory and substitute several more likely scenarios, one of which seems more likely than the others.

In the preferred scenario, a blank "hangs up" in the hole and is punched through when the strip fails to advance properly.

In another scenario, a newly-punched blank gets trapped between the strip and the base plate, lags behind, and is punched through again.

Your scenario is also possible, although it's difficult for a blank to get pulled back up through the hole it left in the strip, due to a very tight fit.

CaptHenway · January 25, 2007 12:43AM

I have serious problems with the idea of a loose blank being sheared by a blanking rod without a heck of a lot of stretching and distortion. Let's use Occam's Razor to stick with a simpler explanation.

An Elliptical clip starts out as a very large curved clip that does not quite go through the strip, probably during the startup of a strip run (though not necessarily). If it stays together through the striking process, we get a retained clip.

Let us suppose that sometimes, let's say during the upsetting process, the weakened planchet snaps in two. The larger "football" piece survives the subsequent riddling process and gets struck. The thinner "crescent" falls through the riddler and gets destroyed. This would explain why struck crescents are rarer than footballs.

MOO
Tom DeLorey

errormaven · January 25, 2007 1:06AM

<< I have serious problems with the idea of a loose blank being sheared by a blanking rod without a heck of a lot of stretching and distortion. Let's use Occam's Razor to stick with a simpler explanation.

An Elliptical clip starts out as a very large curved clip that does not quite go through the strip, probably during the startup of a strip run (though not necessarily). If it stays together through the striking process, we get a retained clip.

Let us suppose that sometimes, let's say during the upsetting process, the weakened planchet snaps in two. The larger "football" piece survives the subsequent riddling process and gets struck. The thinner "crescent" falls through the riddler and gets destroyed. This would explain why struck crescents are rarer than footballs.

MOO
Tom DeLorey >>

If you read my article you'll find that this scenario does not fit the physical or statistical evidence. First of all, with your scenario you would expect to find an exceptionally clear "cut-and-tear" configuration on one of the convex edges. This is not the case. You would also expect incomplete punch errors to outnumber elliptical clips, since not all blanks should break apart, and all the incomplete punches should pass through riddlers and other quality control devices. In point of fact, incomplete punch errors are much, much rarer than elliptical clips.

There are other strikes against your scenario, but I'd have to re-read my article to remember all of them.

I'd be glad to send you a copy. It's a rather extensive treatment.

--Mike Diamond

FredWeinberg · January 25, 2007 1:18AM

I know there is alot of disagreement over the
exact cause of Elliptical Clips.

I can only add the following points to the
discussion (I collected these back in the
1960's !)

1. Almost every EC coin, of any denomination,
that I've seen has the "Cut & Tear Marks on
the oval side of the edge of the planchet; I've
seen it on Elliptical Blanks too.

2. I have a old San Francisco Mint Nickel "Gang Punch"
Press - Two VERY heavy pieces - and the Punches
are solid rods, but with a hole in the center of the rod.
I also have single "Punch Rods from a bit later period,
also from the SF Mint, with the exact same thing as
described above. Because the Rods are solid, and I'm
assuming the "hole" (very small) is there to somehow
make sure the punched blank doesn't stick to the rod,
I can't see how a blank would "stick" to the rod.

3. I've always thought that "Incomplete Clips" are related
to Ellipticals - they always have an Elliptical/Oval shaped
area inside the Incomple Punched Clip marks on both sides
of the coin.

Mike, I don't have the 2005 article in front of me, but I'm
going to try to find it and re-read your article.

errormaven · January 25, 2007 1:27AM

Hi Fred.

In my experience the cut-and-tear marks are sometimes discernible and sometimes not. But in all cases, they are no stronger than that of an ordinary blank. If a blank was breaking apart at a weak, but still intact join, you would have a VERY rough tear zone. And you just don't see that. Also, the actual line of breakage would be a thin band in the middle of the convex edge. No such thin line of breakage has ever been reported.

I agree that it's unlikely a blank will stick to a blanking die, let alone with enough force to resist dislodging as it's dragged up through the hole. But it's not impossible. In any case, that's not my favored scenario.

Incomplete punches and elliptical clips are related in that they both depend on a blank being punched twice. But according to the evidence I've seen, one does not depend on the other.

<< I know there is alot of disagreement over the
exact cause of Elliptical Clips.

I can only add the following points to the
discussion (I collected these back in the
1960's !)

1. Almost every EC coin, of any denomination,
that I've seen has the "Cut & Tear Marks on
the oval side of the edge of the planchet; I've
seen it on Elliptical Blanks too.

2. I have a old San Francisco Mint Nickel "Gang Punch"
Press - Two VERY heavy pieces - and the Punches
are solid rods, but with a hole in the center of the rod.
I also have single "Punch Rods from a bit later period,
also from the SF Mint, with the exact same thing as
described above. Because the Rods are solid, and I'm
assuming the "hole" (very small) is there to somehow
make sure the punched blank doesn't stick to the rod,
I can't see how a blank would "stick" to the rod.

3. I've always thought that "Incomplete Clips" are related
to Ellipticals - they always have an Elliptical/Oval shaped
area inside the Incomple Punched Clip marks on both sides
of the coin.

Mike, I don't have the 2005 article in front of me, but I'm
going to try to find it and re-read your article. >>

Byers · January 25, 2007 1:36AM

Fred's Nickel "Gang Punch" Press

Link

CaptHenway · January 25, 2007 1:41AM

There are other strikes against your scenario, but I'd have to re-read my article to remember all of them.

I'd be glad to send you a copy. It's a rather extensive treatment.

--Mike Diamond >>

Please do. Paper or recycled electrons? I'll give you the address for either.
Tom

TwoSides2aCoin · January 25, 2007 1:43AM

apples and oranges , Jason ?

Sounds more like sour grapes or lemons to me.

Fred is in business to sell coins. Get over the fact that he didn't opt to buy it back. I cannot fault him for his honesty or his graciousness in trying to deal with someone with a sour taste but is it necessary to come in a forum and sabatoge a decent thread over past dealings ? Give your head a shake, mate ! This is about a NICKEL, isn't it ?

Let's consider the edit feature, eh ?

Joe

FredWeinberg · January 25, 2007 2:03AM

Mike, thanks for that link/photo,
but that's only the bottom part.

Do you have a photo of the top
part of the Gang Punch Press that
you can post?

Fred

Shamika · January 25, 2007 5:10AM

What's remarkable is that both the date and mint mark is still visible.

It looks undergraded not that it really matters.

buffnut · January 25, 2007 6:01AM

They actually struck this coin on easter, and wanted to make a coin that is in the holiday spirit.

RichErrors · January 27, 2007 9:18AM

I've known Fred for nearly 30 years, he's one of the most honest dealers I've ever come across. Besides being a good friend, we've done business together for decades.
I could understand if your returning a raw coin with problems, but slabbed? While I prefer handling coins that I would be willing to rebuy from my clients. There's always some coins, you prefer not to re-stock.
Error coins are much different than many generic US coins. We price (Buy & sell) our coins by how fast we can sell them or have to keep them in stock. Error coins are a specialty field and have a much smaller client base than generic or type coins. Go to any major show and there are dozens of wholesalers for generic & Type. We don't have wholesalers in errors, too few errors known. We have to pick & chose by price, the error, The grade and just how long we may have to hold on to it.
I often refer my clients to Fred when I don't have what they're looking for and he does.. What better recommendation is better than that?

Thanx
Rich Schemmer
Rich Schemmer Error Coins
http://WWW.RichErrors.com/store.php

foxxze · January 27, 2007 12:45PM

I myself put a lot of stock in a dealer that will buy back a coin he sold . He needent offer a profit , nor what was paid him - but if he has no offer whatsoever; then he `s crossed off the list .

Wow! neat Buffalo nickel error on Fred Weinberg's site

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