Wisconsin Extra Leaf Variety Statehood Quarters

HIGHLOWLEAVES · January 23, 2007 9:20AM

There is a very interesting statement on Rick Snow's Eagle Eye Coin's web site today. The web site that has an entire section on the Extra Leaf Quarters states that the ANA's The Numismatist publication will be printing an article by Chris Pilliod, a variety coin expert, and that Chris has proven without any doubt that someone handling the dies created both the Wisconsin Extra High Leaf and Extra Low Leaf quarters.
This article will most certainly rule out any suggestion that a die gouge was responsible for the coin's beginning !!

Have a great day and stay tuned !! Mark Smith.

Jcarney · January 23, 2007 9:26AM

I'd love to see absolute proof that these were created intentionally. It strains common sense to even contemplate that these were mere die gouges.

morgansforever · January 23, 2007 9:47AM

<<I'd love to see absolute proof that these were created intentionally. It strains common sense to even contemplate that these were mere die gouges.>>

That's what I'm saying, how could those leaves be a minting error?? Looks like part of the plan.

cladking · January 23, 2007 9:48AM

I'm a little skeptical that this can be proven outside the mint but look forward to it.

ScarsdaleCoin · January 23, 2007 9:58AM

you have a doubt that this was not a mfg error?

Agflyer · January 23, 2007 10:01AM

What's the chance that PCGS will start including these in the Registry?

renman95 · January 23, 2007 10:13AM

It's a conspiracy! Look how the mintages of each state leading to Wisconsin were getting lower and lower. The demand wasn't there, so the Mint director appointed a fall guy to create a buzz in the statehood quarter series. It worked, jmho.

19Lyds · January 23, 2007 10:18AM

Interesting!

At the Denver ANA Money show, I spoke briefly with a guy that worked in the die shop at the Denver Mint! He said he wasn't a collector but was just interested in seeing what was going on at the show!

I've always wondered about that guy?

TwoSides2aCoin · January 23, 2007 10:24AM

<< It's a conspiracy! Look how the mintages of each state leading to Wisconsin were getting lower and lower. The demand wasn't there, so the Mint director appointed a fall guy to create a buzz in the statehood quarter series. It worked, jmho.

>>

I am not so sure it was a conspiracy so much as it was a prank that a few guys in the tool and die shop created and hence put a buzz back into collecting.
The fact that one was explained away by officials from the mint only creates more mystery. Whether it's a blunder, a prank or a cover up... this coin is the KEY so far, in a program that only has 2 years left.

pitboss · January 23, 2007 10:58PM

The sooner that this is cleared up the better. It will either make us rich or broke.

rgl1345 · January 24, 2007 1:22AM

Curious...how much overgraded are NGC extra leaf coins? 1-2 grades or about equal?
Thanks
Ron

MadMarty · January 24, 2007 1:25AM

<< Curious...how much overgraded are NGC extra leaf coins? 1-2 grades or about equal?
Thanks
Ron >>

Put down the Koolaid!!!

pharmer · January 24, 2007 1:34AM

Now don't be hasty. What about this strongly worded analysis? And one of our own weighs in.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · January 24, 2007 1:46AM

Rick Snow's Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarter web site is: http://www.indiancent.com/wiquarter.htm

Have a great day !! Mark.

pitboss · January 24, 2007 1:50AM

thanks Mark

Jcarney · January 24, 2007 1:53AM

<< Now don't be hasty. What about this strongly worded analysis? And one of our own weighs in. >>

If that is true, then these are the two most perfectly shaped, perfectly positioned die gouges in history. One die gouge I might be able to accept. Two? No way.

dpoole · January 24, 2007 1:58AM

I've never understood Ken Potter's strong reaction to the high-leaf low-leaf Wisconsin. He insists these are accidental die gouges, don't look like leaves at all, etc. but his implication is that therefore these are worthy of no more interest than any other die gouge.

Well, first off all, it still defies credulity to me that these two die gouges could have occurred by chance in the locations that they did, with both plausibly appearing to be "leaves."

Also, they look a lot like leaves to most mortals among us, which is the point of their desireability, after all. AND they are plainly visible to the layman.

Finally, because of their singular location and the mysteriously implausible explanation by the Mint for their occurence (they only had a story for ONE of the issues, ignoring the other), this still makes for a bit of numismatic fascination that puts nearly all the other "die gouges" deeply in the shade.

Such is what fascinates collectors of these things, and I would have presumed that Ken Potter, of all people, would find them at least as fascinating and neat as the Wide AM Lincoln varieties.

EagleEye · January 24, 2007 1:58AM

With all due respect for Ken Potter's early assessment, sometimes even the most respected expert is wrong. I don't want to take anything away from Chris' article by posting the proof, but believe me, it is rock-solid proof and Chris approached the article as a skeptic. He convinced himself, and will convince the numismatic community too.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · January 24, 2007 1:59AM

Hi Ron,
IMO NGC was awarding at least one extra grade on these Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters starting in January, 2005 through at least late 2005.
I can say without any question that by May, 2006 NGC was grading the Extra Leaf Quarters on a much stricter basis than before. The real bargains are later graded NGC Extra leaf quarters being offered on Ebay. The only problem is that even a NGC dealer as ourselves can not verify what date a coin was certified by NGC. Believe me, I will make available to any customer in the years to come a copy of our company's invoice from NGC for the corresponding NGC coin's certification number. Even NGC eluded to the fact that they had tightened up significantly when we delivered our group of rare coins in person in Sarasota, FL last May.
Today, NGC IMO is grading on an equal tier as PCGS. I have quarters by both companies.
I hope that answers your question. Have a great day !! Mark.

pitboss · January 24, 2007 2:01AM

Rick, When will the book be coming out. I will be one of the first to order one.

EagleEye · January 24, 2007 2:08AM

After the 1870-1889 Attribution Guide, which will be out this year. It is easier to write though.

pitboss · January 24, 2007 2:14AM

Thanks Rick, Steve Lind

19Lyds · January 24, 2007 2:29AM

I guess I just don't understand why folks are so quick to diss the Extra Leaf quarters!

I mean, really, what difference does it make about how or why they came into existance? Natural, unnatural, who cares? I for one, wish I had purchased many more of these because the simple fact remains that there is a limited quantity and lots and lots of people want them!

rgl1345 · January 24, 2007 2:31AM

<< I guess I just don't understand why folks are so quick to diss the Extra Leaf quarters!

I mean, really, what difference does it make about how or why they came into existance? Natural, unnatural, who cares? I for one, wish I had purchased many more of these because the simple fact remains that there is a limited quantity and lots and lots of people want them! >>

Your right.... I am looking to buy now.

pharmer · January 24, 2007 2:34AM

<< I've never understood Ken Potter's strong reaction to the high-leaf low-leaf Wisconsin. He insists these are accidental die gouges, don't look like leaves at all, etc. but his implication is that therefore these are worthy of no more interest than any other die gouge.

Well, first off all, it still defies credulity to me that these two die gouges could have occurred by chance in the locations that they did, with both plausibly appearing to be "leaves."

Also, they look a lot like leaves to most mortals among us, which is the point of their desireability, after all. AND they are plainly visible to the layman.

Finally, because of their singular location and the mysteriously implausible explanation by the Mint for their occurence (they only had a story for ONE of the issues, ignoring the other), this still makes for a bit of numismatic fascination that puts nearly all the other "die gouges" deeply in the shade.

Such is what fascinates collectors of these things, and I would have presumed that Ken Potter, of all people, would find them at least as fascinating and neat as the Wide AM Lincoln varieties. >>

Ken is a member here, and isn't Tom as well? Hopefully they will weigh in on this.

Aegis3 · January 24, 2007 4:47AM

<< The sooner that this is cleared up the better. It will either make us rich or broke. >>

Yeah, when the 1922 plain Lincoln and the 1937-D 3 leg buffalo were determined to be abraded dies, their values became equal to the non-abraded dies of the respective years/mint.

Face it, value, for better or worse, is not always affected by figuring out what the coin is. Even if good evidence that the so-called extra leaves are intentional (I am not yet convinced, to put it mildly) comes to light in the articles, value is something else entirely. If, OTOH, after the article is published, it becomes conclusively rebutted, will that affect the value? Who knows.

Aegis3 · January 24, 2007 4:48AM

<< 

<< Now don't be hasty. What about this strongly worded analysis? And one of our own weighs in. >>

If that is true, then these are the two most perfectly shaped, perfectly positioned die gouges in history. One die gouge I might be able to accept. Two? No way. >>

How many "atheist cent" varieties do you need to accept that there was someone in the mint who took church/state separation seriously?

pitboss · January 24, 2007 5:36AM

There has only been 60 graded at PCGS in the past month of all grades. Its almost imposible to find any more good coins ungraded at this point.

cladking · January 24, 2007 7:27AM

<< I guess I just don't understand why folks are so quick to diss the Extra Leaf quarters!

I mean, really, what difference does it make about how or why they came into existance? Natural, unnatural, who cares? I for one, wish I had purchased many more of these because the simple fact remains that there is a limited quantity and lots and lots of people want them! >>

I think it makes a big difference. If they were completely inadvertant and the result
of mere happenstance then my interest would be minimal. They'd be interesting but
little more. But being intentionally made raises them to the level of "type". Like the
type I standing liberty quarter, a collection would need all three types of WI "D" quar-
ters to be complete. It really doesn't matter if these are "official", "semi-official" or just
pranks, they are still types.

While I'm a little skeptical that it can be proven from sources outside the mint at this
late date, I doubt there is any real chance that these were not intentional. It's not on-
ly the "artistic talent" that went into these but the mere fact they were made and is-
sued side by side. It's almost as though the "designer" didn't want anyone to mistake
his coin for an accident so he made the down leaf too.

Bochiman · January 24, 2007 7:57AM

<< There has only been 60 graded at PCGS in the past month of all grades. Its almost imposible to find any more good coins ungraded at this point. >>

Don't bet on that....they are out there. Mine was one graded last month and the only reason I did it was because I finally had the opportunity to send them in. They were in my sdb raw and sitting there and I needed something else to send in.

So, I strongly believe there are more raw ones out there, not just what is graded right now....not everyone who grabbed one cares to have it graded

cladking · January 24, 2007 8:07AM

<< 

<< There has only been 60 graded at PCGS in the past month of all grades. Its almost imposible to find any more good coins ungraded at this point. >>

Don't bet on that....they are out there. Mine was one graded last month and the only reason I did it was because I finally had the opportunity to send them in. They were in my sdb raw and sitting there and I needed something else to send in.

So, I strongly believe there are more raw ones out there, not just what is graded right now....not everyone who grabbed one cares to have it graded >>

There may be a significant number of single examples still ungraded in collector
hands but it appears most of the big hoards have been busted up and dispersed.
If true then the new coins will dribble in for grading for many years.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · January 24, 2007 9:26AM

From talking to people here in South Texas and Arizonia, it is IMHO that yes there are a handful of people that have found or purchased these scarce Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters and most HAVE already had their raw coins graded by the major TPG Companies. The reason behind this statement is that I for one did not want to sell a raw high grade Wisconsin Quarter for an average grade coin price and regret it later.

The few coins that hoarders are holding are not truly a sizeable quantity and the majority of the coins have already been graded and accounted for in the PCGS and NGC Populations online. Most of these collectors who are holding or still acquiring the Extra Leaf Quarters are very content to remain holding their coins until they retire in several years.

Bottom Line: Time maybe running out to buy a nice set of Wisconsin Extra Leaf Statehood Quarters at today's prices.

Have a great day !! Mark Smith.

pharmer · January 24, 2007 10:16AM

Mark, I agree with your point of view about the collectability of these. I am curious if your intent is entirely altruistic, that of making sure folks get 'em before they're all gone, as you just said, or do you also sell these, individually or in sets? If you've addressed this before, my apologies.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · January 24, 2007 11:04AM

Hello pharmer,
Your question concerning my true intent concerning the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters is well taken. My intent is not to "Hype" the value or scarcity of these two coins. I am not a seller of these coins. I do feel like they deserve their rightful recognition within the numismatic world and that some error coin experts would rather ignore their existence and "beat the drums" about AM Pennies or MN Extra Tree Quarters.
My personal interest in the Wisconsin Quarters stem from the fact that I was probably one of the first collector/dealers living in the South Texas area that knew that these rare coins had been distributed in the San Antonio-Austin, Tx area. Would you like a list of 75-100 South Texas banks that I visited even before the USA Today and others broadcasted the news of these valualbe coins back in February, 2005?
Sure, my thoughts are to offer some of the Wisconsin Quarters many years from now when they have been recognized and desired by many state quarter and variety coin collectors. The Texas side of the discovery is a story that has yet to be told.
If you look back at my many messages on this forum's BST section, you will see that I have continued to post a Want Message to buy High Leaf Wisconsin quarters... and have never offer any of the two varieties for sale.
Back in 1962 when I was a young coin collector living in Houston, Tx, I worked hard for an entire summer to buy the last coin that I needed to complete my Lincoln penny set in a large Capital Plastic board. That coin which had been ignored in the 50's cost this young man $200. Boy was I proud of that completed set !!
My interest in these coins is to share information that I have worked hard to gather or have learned from experience. What still puzzles me is the fact that none of the major San Antonio coin dealers ever appeared to have any interest in holding these coins. They simply flipped them as quick as they could !! An Austin, Tx dealer with good intentions told me from early on that they thought the interest in the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters was simply a passing fad and would quickly go away. They stated that they did not want to sell such a Fluffed coin to any of their long time customers. I believe that their opinion concerning these coins may have changed now !!
pharmer, thank you for your question. I trust that I have answered your question.

Have a great day !! Mark Smith.

Hugegut · January 24, 2007 11:16AM

TwoSides2aCoin · January 24, 2007 11:22AM

<< I like those extra leaf quarters. I actually just got 2 of them back from PCGS this week. Got an MS63 on my Lo leaf and MS64 on the Hi leaf. I've had a bunch of them since they came out. >>

me too.... sold them all after getting them slabbed by PCGS.
Something about Kool Aid...

Tastes Great

I learned a lesson about selling prematurely, too.

They continue to climb.

cladking · January 24, 2007 11:43AM

<< Mark, I agree with your point of view about the collectability of these. I am curious if your intent is entirely altruistic, that of making sure folks get 'em before they're all gone, as you just said, or do you also sell these, individually or in sets? If you've addressed this before, my apologies. >>

You didn't ask but I rarely pass a chance to plug my coins.

I own not a single extra leaf variety quarter. I've been a big supporter of these coins
since they were first discovered because they deserve the attention of collectors and
the biggest weakness of moderns is that they tend to be too common or too rare. Well,
these are just right.

There are a lot of parallels to the 1982-NMM dime. It's a minor miracle that this earlier
coin was even discovered before being widely dispersed in circulation since people didn't
even look at their change in those days. Many did get into circulation but most got snap-
ped up into a few large hoards, or found by those who sold them into hoards. These
coins are nearly as important and nearly as scarce as the extra leaf coins but still get very
little attention. Ironically though you can spend more on a nice high grade 1982-P with
the mintmarks than the one without the mintmark. This gives you an idea of just how few
of those older coins have been set aside and how shallow the demand is for moderns.

The extra leaf coins get attention because they are in a hugely popular series. While many
might figure the number of states collectors will drop off when the program is over there is
a strong possibility that even should this occur the remaining collectors will become increas-
ingly sophisticated and demand for these coins can still grow.

No one should buy one of these to make money but large numbers of collectors will consider
these part of the set and some type collectors will have an interest in them. There might
even be some interest from outside the hobby due to the very unusual circumstances of
their production.

pitboss · January 24, 2007 11:46AM

Mark,
Thank you for a great conversation this afternoon. These coins will be a high topic for years to come. Sooner or later the whole truth will be known and anybody that hasn't picked up theirs will be wishing that they had. Steve Lind

HIGHLOWLEAVES · January 24, 2007 8:23PM

PCGS Price List News: Wisconsin Extra High Leaf coin grade 67 and Low Leaf coin grade MS 67 each increases to $13,000 today !!
Have a great day !! Mark.

RetirementCoins · January 24, 2007 9:02PM

<< Most of these collectors who are holding or still acquiring the Extra Leaf Quarters are very content to remain holding their coins until they retire in several years. >>

You must be talking about me Mark. Hello from Missouri.

pitboss · January 24, 2007 10:57PM

wow! Those 67s just keep on climbing.

morgansforever · January 24, 2007 11:25PM

<<wow! Those 67s just keep on climbing.>>

What casino do you work at? Looking for a job in gaming, craps/bj.
Yes these quarters are a modern rarity, and will continue to climb, imo.

pitboss · January 25, 2007 4:06AM

Route 66 casino, Albuquerque, N.M.

pitboss · February 1, 2007 9:58AM

Looks like there is more coins being listed and better quality now too. The prices have been respectable.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · February 1, 2007 12:45PM

Yes indeed !! A set of NGC MS 66 High/Low leaf Quarters sold just in the last few days for over $1,600.00 on Ebay !! That's not too shabby !! I am still trying to buy some Wisconsin Extra High Leaf Quarters !!
Everyone have a great day !! Mark.
PS: I looked at the archives of the Denver Post and got the name of the newspaper repoter who reported the Wisconsin Error Quarter story in their local paper back in 02/05. I was hoping that he might be able to get to the root of the intentional added leaf designs. You never know !!

pitboss · February 2, 2007 6:16AM

That sure would be nice. Steve

pf70collector · February 2, 2007 7:09AM

es indeed !! A set of NGC MS 66 High/Low leaf Quarters sold just in the last few days for over $1,600.00 on Ebay !!

Is that a fluke? I bought mine a few months ago for $1000, in NGC MS 66.

rgl1345 · February 2, 2007 8:46AM

Gee, my PCGS64's are probably losers

pitboss · February 2, 2007 9:28AM

They won't be losers long.

HIGHLOWLEAVES · February 3, 2007 9:20PM

PCGS for this week ending on 2/4/07 graded a whopping "Nine" Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters of both varieties !! Very low and Very interesting !! Have a great day !! Mark Smith.

RetirementCoins · February 4, 2007 12:26AM

So what are the graded totals up to now for all the TPG's?

Wisconsin Extra Leaf Variety Statehood Quarters

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