You know, I really sick of hearing how overgraded NGC coins are and how perfect PCGS is...
MadMarty
Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
Get a life people, there are crap coins in PCGS and NGC holders. Overgraded coins in both holders and undergraded coins in both. You people who paint the broad streak that NGC coins are always overgraded need to wake up and smell the coffee. If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they... Geeze, buy the COIN not the HOLDER!
It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!
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<< <i>Get a life people, there are crap coins in PCGS and NGC holders. Overgraded coins in both holders and undergraded coins in both. You people who paint the broad streak that NGC coins are always overgraded need to wake up and smell the coffee. If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they... Geeze, buy the COIN not the HOLDER! >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I find both to be equally talented... and equally likely to occassionally over or undergrade a coin.
<< <i>If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they >>
Why wouldn't they? Its a revenue source, and probably a pretty good one since a lot of people (not including you, evidently) seem to want their coins in PC holders.
for classic coins I don't feel the same way.
--Jerry
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<< <i>If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they >>
Why wouldn't they? Its a revenue source, and probably a pretty good one since a lot of people (not including you, evidently) seem to want their coins in PC holders. >>
I have coins in both holders, I have had my share of DNCs, cracked them out and guess what. Poof the coin is in PCGS plastic. But there are koolaid drinkers here who have made the statement that NGC always overgrades and PCGS always undergrades.
Get with the program!
This year, we are talking about Platinum coins and how to corner the market. Ok?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I buy the coin, as do most here. In fact, I have an old style ANACS MS65 Walker that must have had a crack smoker grader. I can find but a single minor bag mark on the reverse, this coin MAY be a solid 67.
The Star thing to me is a joke. I've seen many great looking NGC coins and wondered why then did they not have a star? I've seen star coins that made me scratch my head, especially the morgans.
I think NGC is a bit tougher on 19th century classics and Franklins. Other than that, they are a .3 point to a full point overgraded on the above coins I mentioned. You don't have to agree with me, but those are facts.
I have found virtually no difference on buffs and morgans for the most part, though I will state my BELIEF that NGC is more accurate on buffs, and I see more buffs in NGC holders overall, especially the real rarities, which may indicate a general preference to NGC for high end collectors of the series.
Let's pretend -- pretend -- 80% of Brand P coins are accurately graded or undergraded, and 70% of Brand N coins are likewise. Not a big difference in quality.
Of an initial 100 coins from each service, we have:
* 80 "good" Brand P coins for the grade
* 70 "good" Brand N coins for the grade
* 20 "bad" Brand P coins for the grade
* 30 "bad" Brand N coins for the grade
The problem is, the market perceives "brand P" is better, so maybe half of the properly graded "brand N" coins are crossed over to Brand P. So 35 of the properly graded Brand N coins are submitted to Brand P, where 80% are "good" and 20% are "bad". Let's say another 100 coins go into Brand N as well, with another 70/30 split. Now we have:
* Still 80% "good" coins in Brand P and 20% "bad"
* 105 "good" brand N coins for the grade (35 of the original coins plus another 70 just submitted)
* 60 "bad" brand N coins for the grade (the original 30 plus 30 more just submitted)
Brand P still has an 80% "good" coin ratio; Brand N now has just 63.6% -- not 70% any more. The perception gap (and value for plastic chasers) widens. Another 50 of the "good" Brand N coins are crossed over to Brand P as a result. Meanwhile, another 100 coins trickle into Brand N, again with a 70/30 result. Now we have:
* Still 80% "good" coins in Brand P;
* 125 "good" Brand N coins (55 from before plus another 70)
* 90 "bad" Brand N coins (60 from before plus another 30)
Now, only 58% of Brand N coins are "good" and 42% are "bad" compared with still 80/20 for Brand P. Now people cross over Good Brand N coins en masse. Rinse, lather, repeat. And Brand N looks worse and worse, despite getting it right ALMOST as often as Brand P.
This is what the market's slavish devotion to plastic hath wrought. And I think this is dangerous for the health and well-being of the hobby.
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<< <i>
<< <i>If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they >>
Why wouldn't they? Its a revenue source, and probably a pretty good one since a lot of people (not including you, evidently) seem to want their coins in PC holders. >>
I have coins in both holders, I have had my share of DNCs, cracked them out and guess what. Poof the coin is in PCGS plastic. But there are koolaid drinkers here who have made the statement that NGC always overgrades and PCGS always undergrades.
OK, now you seem to have moved on to a new and different argument.
<< <i>This is what the market's slavish devotion to plastic hath wrought. And I think this is dangerous for the health and well-being of the hobby. >>
<< <i>The proliferaction of 70's for NGC either means that they are loser with the moderns... or PCGS simply is tighter, despite many coins deserving the grade. Who knows, since the mortal eye under 10x magnification still can't tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 9 out of 10 times.
I have found virtually no difference on buffs and morgans for the most part, though I will state my BELIEF that NGC is more accurate on buffs, and I see more buffs in NGC holders overall, especially the real rarities, which may indicate a general preference to NGC for high end collectors of the series. >>
Personally, I find it hard to believe that the mint can churn out so FEW "perfect" coins, as PCGS seems to think. They come right off the line, go into a plastic holder and many of them go right to the TPGs. What in that process would warrant that only 1 in 100 (or more, depending on the series) makes it into a PCGS slab? I think NGC is more realistic on their modern grading, and PCGS may be making the market and feeding the modern frenzy to their Registry Set advantage. It was no surprise that Ed Reiter and Scott Travers bashed the whole ultra-high grade 70 modern feeding frenzy as of late, predicting the market for these will crash soon. time will tell
British gold in an NGC 62/63 slab is technically no better than an AU58 90% of the time. However, I now have an NGC sov. in their 65 holder....stunning coin, and it will cross to a PC5. Of course, it will show up in CA nekkid. No need for undue bias.
<< <i>Get a life people.
Geeze, buy the COIN not the HOLDER! >>
Those have both been words of wisdom for a long time, and bear constant repeating.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
People with knowledge buy the coin not the plastic , one can reasonably deduce based on actual resale prices and auction realised prices that the majority of the time PCGS gets it right and NGC is second fiddle.
Both services are good but when the money comes to the table PCGS rules the roost. It may not sound fair but what better gauge of impartial valuation is there than a free market?
<< <i>People with knowledge buy the coin not the plastic , one can reasonably deduce based on actual resale prices and auction realised prices that the majority of the time PCGS gets it right and NGC is second fiddle. >>
See my example above. Even if you alter my example so that both services got it right at the same rate, market perception becomes reality as "good" NGC coins get crossed over and its dogs remain with them. Fewer "good" NGC coins are in the market and suddenly, they "suck."
I will say that PCGS's marketing people are geniuses as many of the things they have done in the industry have helped secure this status -- and NOT JUST their grading standards.
<< <i>I agree with some of what you say. But there is some truth to it that NGC overgrades certain issue's. Take a look at Teletrade and see how many NGC66 washingtons there are. Why is that? Because dealers know pcgs is tough on that issue. I have a 50-S Roosevelt graded 65 by pcgs that is a no brainer 66 in a ngc holder. I've seen a 48D Washington Graded 66 by pcgs that I know would be a 67 in an ngc holder. It's not all about suggestion or Kool Aid, it's about research and reality with a little reputation thrown in the mix. >>
So what you are saying is that ALL NGC MS66 Washingtons are overgraded and none would cross into a PCGS holder?
and "we" know it is all about the benjimens.
As far as the original post, you're right on! However the market has more trust in the PCGS slab and with that there is no denying. But the fact remains that ALL slabbed coins should be graded on there merit and not necessarily with what the slab states as everybody knows that coins can be overgraded and undergraded by ALL 3rd party grading companies!
With the coin business, not many things are absolute except for the fact that Russ will eventually own all the Birthmark Kennedies!
The name is LEE!
Uh, er, oops.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i> In fact, I have seen more puttied coins and harshly cleaned coins, for example, in PCGS holders than NGC holders. >>
I wonder what Laura's experence is???
The rest of us will continue to pick off the pathetic NGC slabs at a fraction of the cost.
Positive BST: WhiteThunder (x2), Ajaan, onefasttalon, mirabela, Wizard1, cucamongacoin, mccardguy1
Negative BST: NONE!
<< <i>The rest of us will continue to pick off the pathetic NGC slabs at a fraction of the cost. >>
Your secret is safe with me.
Untill NGC slabbed coins can be seen in hand this is exactly how it will stay. Way tooooo many dogs have been purchased sight unseen and this usually is not what happens with PCGS slabbed coins. Please notice that usually was used.
Ken
<< <i>Pitcher after pitcher of PCGS Kool-Aid is being consumed by this guy. ANACS beverage also at times. The well has run dry for NGC.
Untill NGC slabbed coins can be seen in hand this is exactly how it will stay. Way tooooo many dogs have been purchased sight unseen and this usually is not what happens with PCGS slabbed coins. Please notice that usually was used. >>
If we can agree that it's a bad thing for one TPG to dominate the industry, then what can be done about this?
Imagine being NGC here. Your "good works" in proper grading are "rewarded" with crackouts and crossovers to PCGS. Meanwhile, all your dogs stick to you. No matter how good you are, your mistakes stick with you and your good works are lost to the "PCGS or nothing" camp. The net effect is that you look way more incompetent than you really are. Would you like to be evaluated that way in your job?
I can't be the only one who thinks this is a bad thing for the hobby. And yet, this is what worshipping at the altar of PCGS is bringing us.
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<< <i>I agree with some of what you say. But there is some truth to it that NGC overgrades certain issue's. Take a look at Teletrade and see how many NGC66 washingtons there are. Why is that? Because dealers know pcgs is tough on that issue. I have a 50-S Roosevelt graded 65 by pcgs that is a no brainer 66 in a ngc holder. I've seen a 48D Washington Graded 66 by pcgs that I know would be a 67 in an ngc holder. It's not all about suggestion or Kool Aid, it's about research and reality with a little reputation thrown in the mix. >>
So what you are saying is that ALL NGC MS66 Washingtons are overgraded and none would cross into a PCGS holder? >>
No Obe-wrong-kenobe, and take your words out of his mouth, he doesn't know where they've been
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Why do PCGS coins consistently go for better money then?
People with knowledge buy the coin not the plastic , one can reasonably deduce based on actual resale prices and auction realised prices that the majority of the time PCGS gets it right and NGC is second fiddle.
Both services are good but when the money comes to the table PCGS rules the roost. It may not sound fair but what better gauge of impartial valuation is there than a free market? >>
One COULD answer this in a word: MARKETING.
Assume to equal products (as equal as makes no difference). Now, spend more money on marketing on one than the other. Market perception will shift (yep, marketing works) and the market will value the other item more. A great example is medicine. Generic medicines are the EXACT same item as name brands, and yet the market percieves that the name brand is the better way to go. The name brand is marketed to, and has the name association. More people buy it, though it COSTS MORE.
Yep, marketing works.
I'm not knocking PCGS in any way. I think they are great. I think they have out marketed NGC.
And crossovers, by the way, are a form of marketing (or can be). A company not thinking about marketing will simply cross a coin that deserves crossing (therefore, a raw coin and one encapsulated have the same chance). A company that uses crossovers as part of marketing will not cross a significant percent of coins coming to them. Why, because this builds on the perception, that at a given grade level, they are tougher, therefore better. How do you know when this marketing is happening... easy, when people begin to crack out coins instead of crossing in plastic because they have learned that they get better results (therefore taking the marketing out of the grading process). Hmmm, is that happening?
<< <i>I can't be the only one who thinks this is a bad thing for the hobby. And yet, this is what worshipping at the altar of PCGS is bringing us. >>
Location, circustances and prior results dictate the worship for some collectors. Why take mamouth chances when you can reduce the chances to snail size ? Its all chance most of the time.
Ken
<< <i>One COULD answer this in a word: MARKETING.
Assume to equal products (as equal as makes no difference). Now, spend more money on marketing on one than the other. Market perception will shift (yep, marketing works) and the market will value the other item more. A great example is medicine. Generic medicines are the EXACT same item as name brands, and yet the market percieves that the name brand is the better way to go. The name brand is marketed to, and has the name association. More people buy it, though it COSTS MORE.
Yep, marketing works.
I'm not knocking PCGS in any way. I think they are great. I think they have out marketed NGC.
And crossovers, by the way, are a form of marketing (or can be). A company not thinking about marketing will simply cross a coin that deserves crossing (therefore, a raw coin and one encapsulated have the same chance). A company that uses crossovers as part of marketing will not cross a significant percent of coins coming to them. Why, because this builds on the perception, that at a given grade level, they are tougher, therefore better. How do you know when this marketing is happening... easy, when people begin to crack out coins instead of crossing in plastic because they have learned that they get better results (therefore taking the marketing out of the grading process). Hmmm, is that happening?
BINGO.
PCGS has marketed itself as "above" other services, with its obvious bias against crossovers versus crackouts, the exclusionary registry and stuff like "First Strike." Personally, I'm becoming worried that PCGS is becoming "the market" and "the market" is becoming PCGS. No one business should have that much clout in the hobby.
I certainly buy my share of PCGS coins and would submit coins to PCGS for grading, but that doesn't mean they are the end-all-be-all.
<< <i>Not only are you using foul , purposely misspelled words, and inviting others to post pictures of the male genitalia ; but most disturbing to me is that you are mocking PCGS on their own site . More then a few members have gotten the boot for less. >>
How am I mocking PCGS?
For the record, as I put in a thread a few weeks ago, I had 4 NGC copper pieces (3 proof IHC and 1 55/55 lincoln) that I sent in for crossover with other submitted coins. Reason was the NGC slabs were quite scratched and hard to image.
All 4 were sent in as minimum grade of what they already were. All 4 crossed at the same grade. No upgrades. No DNC.
However, I trusted the people I bought the coins from (Mark Feld, Pinnacle Rarities, etc) and I also looked at the coins before sending them in to make sure of the grade. I felt confident.
Now, on my Wisconsin Extra Leaf quarters that I sent to PCGS....that was a factor of a few things....(a) I can send to PCGS right now but not NGC (b) I do believe that PCGS is tighter on these for grades than NGC (c) market perception is the same and thus they are a higher dollar item at the same grade when in PCGS entombment
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Not only are you using foul , purposely misspelled words, and inviting others to post pictures of the male genitalia ; but most disturbing to me is that you are mocking PCGS on their own site . More then a few members have gotten the boot for less. >>
You are certainly well informed for just arriving last Friday, foxxy
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>Don't have to wake up and smell the coffee. The market itseld tells you, in general, that NGC coins bring less prices. >>
But that is not the point. In a way that is a good thing, as far as the crackout artists are concerned.
<< <i>Don't have to wake up and smell the coffee. The market itseld tells you, in general, that NGC coins bring less prices. >>
Admitting a market condition and saying PCGS is "the only way" are two different things. The former is simply acknowledging reality and the latter is chugging the Kool-Aid.
While I don't disagree, I find it curious that someone that "buys the coin, not the holder" can be so animated about this subject. After all, if the plastic doesn't matter, the plastic doesn't matter. Period.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Get a life people, there are crap coins in PCGS and NGC holders. Overgraded coins in both holders and undergraded coins in both. You people who paint the broad streak that NGC coins are always overgraded need to wake up and smell the coffee. If that statement were true, then PCGS wouldn't offer crossover service now would they... Geeze, buy the COIN not the HOLDER!
While I don't disagree, I find it curious that someone that "buys the coin, not the holder" can be so animated about this subject. After all, if the plastic doesn't matter, the plastic doesn't matter. Period. >>
I just get sick of hearing how overgraded NGC coins are, and how perfect PCGS grading is. Sorry people, I love them both...
But, in grades higher than MS 64, PCGS is 1 to 2 points harder on Capped bust halves (1807 to 1836), and a look at the pop reports will confirm this.
About 3 times more 66's have been graded by NGC, and almost twice as many 65's.
It is well known that many dealers, looking for the extra profits thay desire, will upgrade PCGS 64's and 65's to NGC slabs. And there are only a few collectors who will take the 1 point (or more) downgrade to get the coin into the PCGS slab.
Certain characteristics are almost always present.
1. The MS 66 grade at PCGS requires a better strike, and the surfaces must be original. NGC will desiginate a 66 with a slightly weak strike in the wings, and hair curls. And the toning may be questionable.
2. I have successfully crossed NGC 64's(and below) into PCGS slabs. In many tries, only 1 NGC 65 to a PCGS 65. And I have never been successful with an NGC 66.
3. I proudly own many NGC CBH's. And several early halves. And will continue to buy the series in either holder, if the coin is nice. But the premium for PCGS 65's and 66's will most likely be substantial.
4. There are even some problems with AU coins not being up to the PCGS standards. Recently a rare date in NGC 55 only made XF 45 at PCGS. I think I would have left that one in the holder.
<< <i>Don't have to wake up and smell the coffee. The market itseld tells you, in general, that NGC coins bring less prices. >>
I don't think anyone questions that fact. That is not the point, however. The point is in understanding why this is true, and discussing how much of this is percpetion based. Many people will tell you that when it comes to buying, they are very happy with an NGC or a PCGS coin. Why, well, hopefully they are buying the coin not the holder, and they feel that these two companies can well represent a fair and reasonable grade for the coin, and certainly ensure it is the real deal. And yet, when it comes time to sell, most folks tell you to be in PCGS plastic (because it fetches higher prices). Funny that. Market perception. Goes back to my point about marketing and how marketing can shape a market, define a market, etc.
PCGS has become a market maker. Amazing that a method of authentification and encapsulation can make the market (considering the coin should be the sole item of consideration) but PCGS has done this. Hats off to them for a job well done! Just don't let it confuse you or push you into poor judgments. The coin is still the item of value. There are two phenominal grading companies, and several pretty good ones. For a collector (not a seller) any one of the top 3 or maybe even 4 can get the job done very nicely!