Got swindled on E-bay~ need input?

marz · January 23, 2007 10:29AM

I need your input. Have you ever made a purchase on ebay and were shipped something different? What recourse would I have besides Paypal or filing a dispute?

Here's what happened:

I bought a gold coin, with several descriptions as a NGC, but when I got it it was a NGS. NGS was mentioned in a afterthought 4 hours before closing. The guy doesn't want to refund. What do you guys think?

Here is the coin! Thanks guys

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230076742930&rd=1&rd=1

ILikeMercs · January 23, 2007 10:31AM

charge back if you paid by paypal....clearly a false statement made by seller. Very deceitful looking slab.

dbldie55 · January 23, 2007 10:32AM

Picture shows a NGS holder and the description update was added before you bid (from what I can tell). What did you expect to get?

John91C · January 23, 2007 10:33AM

I don't know how I would react to this because the picture looks like it says NGS not NGC but it's a fine line ( I had to squint to see it). It might be one of those bite it in the butt and learn lesson. That sucks the seller won't take a refund...

John

notwilight · January 23, 2007 10:33AM

Picture clearly shows NCS so he's argue that and honest mistake. I don't think it is likely an honest mistake. If it was, he would honestly take it back. I think paypal would find in your favor if you file it but it'll take a while. I assume you don't think the coin would cross?

ILikeMercs · January 23, 2007 10:36AM

<< Picture shows a NGS holder and the description update was added before you bid (from what I can tell). What did you expect to get? >>

revised with a small add on.............he should have pulled the auction

I say he KNEW exactly what he was doing

21Walker · January 23, 2007 10:37AM

Well, first off I would have seen it right off the bat that the holder was not NGC.......Your Boo Boo, You may have a leg to stand on with PAYPAL as this seller really misrepresented the TPG twice.........once in the tilte and then again in the description (both separate entries).

Good luck.........Rick

ebaytrader · January 23, 2007 10:38AM

Seller's return policy:
Item must be returned within: 3 Days Refund will be given as: Money Back
Return Policy Details: If for any reason item is not as descripted,

Items may be returned for credit or refund less shipping, PayPal fees. Items must be postmarked within three days of receipt. The item can not be removed from original holder and/or plastic flips. NO RETURNS after three days of receipt, if removed from original holder or packaging, if it is damaged or the seal on the packaging is broken.

pharmer · January 23, 2007 10:43AM

Although it's clearly not an NGC slab, it does say so in the description, and he could have corrected that when he added his note, as there were no bids yet. You have a case.

mrpaseo · January 23, 2007 10:46AM

<< Seller's return policy:
Item must be returned within: 3 Days Refund will be given as: Money Back
Return Policy Details: If for any reason item is not as descripted,

Items may be returned for credit or refund less shipping, PayPal fees. Items must be postmarked within three days of receipt. The item can not be removed from original holder and/or plastic flips. NO RETURNS after three days of receipt, if removed from original holder or packaging, if it is damaged or the seal on the packaging is broken. >>

So, basically if you open the package that he sent to you, you can not return it... This right here is obvious he knew what he was doing. (That is if he is a he, if not, then replace he with she and the statement still stands)

Some people should just be shot.

Just my opinion though.

Ray

marz · January 23, 2007 10:49AM

<< I don't know how I would react to this because the picture looks like it says NGS not NGC but it's a fine line ( I had to squint to see it). It might be one of those bite it in the butt and learn lesson. That sucks the seller won't take a refund...

John >>

It was listed as NGC and he changed it 4 hours beofre it closed!

marz · January 23, 2007 10:49AM

<< Picture shows a NGS holder and the description update was added before you bid (from what I can tell). What did you expect to get? >>

read what I posted! it was listed as an NGC coin and changed 4 hours prior to the close of the auction!

TwoSides2aCoin · January 23, 2007 10:50AM

I am sorry that you got took. The guy is slicker than snot

NGC MS 63
1926 $2 1/2 INDIAN HEAD GOLD COIN

$1200 TRENDS

A beautiful, solid gold coin with satiny, super lustrous surfaces.

PCGS No: 7950 Mintage: Circulation strikes: ONLY 446,000!!!!

Proofs: 0 Designer: Bela Lyon Pratt Diameter: 18 millimeters Metal Content: Gold - 90% Copper - 10% Weight: ±64.5 grains (±4.18 grams) Edge: Reeded Mintmark: None (for Philadelphia, PA) left of the arrowheads on the reverse

Happy Bidding!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-17-07 at 10:31:34 PST, seller added the following information:
NOTE: ITEM IS GRADED BY NGS

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You should send the seller a link to here and let him know that he is being scrutinized now

Tonelover · January 23, 2007 10:50AM

I think you should leave him positive feedback, the guy clearly sells ass whoopings and that's exactly what you received.

Interesting how the lure of a good deal has a way of blinding people to such possibilities.

marz · January 23, 2007 10:51AM

<< Although it's clearly not an NGC slab, it does say so in the description, and he could have corrected that when he added his note, as there were no bids yet. You have a case. >>

He changed it four hours prior tp the close! there were bids already

Russ · January 23, 2007 10:53AM

<< << Picture shows a NGS holder and the description update was added before you bid (from what I can tell). What did you expect to get? >>

read what I posted! it was listed as an NGC coin and changed 4 hours prior to the close of the auction! >>

So, he changed the image four hours before closing?

Russ, NCNE

BlindedByEgo · January 23, 2007 10:55AM

<< I need your input. Have you ever made a purchase on ebay and were shipped something different? What recourse would I have besides Paypal or filing a dispute?

Here's what happened:

I bought a gold coin, with several descriptions as a NGC, but when I got it it was a NGS. NGS was mentioned in a afterthought 4 hours before closing. The guy doesn't want to refund. What do you guys think?

Here is the coin! Thanks guys

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230076742930&rd=1&rd=1 >>

Dispute it through Paypal as item received not as described. Remember that there is no Santy Claus.

Russ · January 23, 2007 10:56AM

<< He changed it four hours prior tp the close! there were bids already >>

There is only one bid, which was placed Jan-17-07 16:57:42 PST. The listing was revised Jan-17-07 at 10:31:34 PST, which is more than six hours prior to the bid.

Russ, NCNE

notwilight · January 23, 2007 11:01AM

<< 

<< Although it's clearly not an NGC slab, it does say so in the description, and he could have corrected that when he added his note, as there were no bids yet. You have a case. >>

He changed it four hours prior tp the close! there were bids already >>

As I previously posted, I think this guy purposely tried to mislead you. As others have not-so-gently pointed out, you could have noticed the photo was not NGC and avoided the auction. But one part of your story doesn't hold up. The seller can't edit an auction in the last 12 hours. Even if he did, it still says NGC to me so I'm not sure what you're talking about. --Jerry

jmski52 · January 23, 2007 11:01AM

The seller clearly knew what he was doing. You got screwed (in my opinion), and of course, ebay is about as much help as tits on a boar. I agree with Ray. I also agree that you should let him know that the board is scrutinizing his sleazy business practices. Good luck with any negotiations.

Russ · January 23, 2007 11:07AM

<< The seller can't edit an auction in the last 12 hours. >>

Revised Jan-17-07 at 10:31:34 PST
Ended Jan-17-07 19:30:00 PST

Russ, NCNE

Outhaul · January 23, 2007 11:07AM

He's a Powerseller! How could he possibly be dishonest?

pharmer · January 23, 2007 11:09AM

<< 

<< Although it's clearly not an NGC slab, it does say so in the description, and he could have corrected that when he added his note, as there were no bids yet. You have a case. >>

He changed it four hours prior tp the close! there were bids already >>

No, yours was the only bid on this, and it came after his note. He could have corrected the NGC thing then.

coltgus · January 23, 2007 11:10AM

I think swindled is too strong a word. Probably the seller was trying to fool people but you should have noticed the holder and description and knew that these are selling for $800+ right now.

Russ · January 23, 2007 11:11AM

<< << Although it's clearly not an NGC slab, it does say so in the description, and he could have corrected that when he added his note, as there were no bids yet. You have a case. >>

He changed it four hours prior tp the close! there were bids already >>

No, yours was the only bid on this, and it came after his note. He could have corrected the NGC thing then. >>

Actually, no he couldn't. At the time of his revision, (less than 12 hours from auction close), all he can do is add to the description - which is what he did. He cannot change anything.

Russ, NCNE

pharmer · January 23, 2007 11:12AM

I stand corrected.

marz · January 23, 2007 11:15AM

<< I am sorry that you got took. The guy is slicker than snot

NGC MS 63
1926 $2 1/2 INDIAN HEAD GOLD COIN

$1200 TRENDS

A beautiful, solid gold coin with satiny, super lustrous surfaces.

PCGS No: 7950 Mintage: Circulation strikes: ONLY 446,000!!!!

Proofs: 0 Designer: Bela Lyon Pratt Diameter: 18 millimeters Metal Content: Gold - 90% Copper - 10% Weight: ±64.5 grains (±4.18 grams) Edge: Reeded Mintmark: None (for Philadelphia, PA) left of the arrowheads on the reverse

Happy Bidding!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-17-07 at 10:31:34 PST, seller added the following information:
NOTE: ITEM IS GRADED BY NGS

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You should send the seller a link to here and let him know that he is being scrutinized now

>>

check your in box again! buy the plastic not the coin! LOL thanks for the advise!

wayneherndon · January 23, 2007 11:15AM

From what I can tell it appears as follows:

10:31 -- Description changed to say NGS
16:57 -- You bid
19:30 -- Auction ends

It appears to me as if the description was changed 9 hours before it ended and was already changed at the time of your bid.

I did not check his other auctions. If he as "accidentally" misdescribed the TPG in other auctions, then he is probably being deceptive. On the other hand, if not and he sells a lot of NGC coins, it could simply be a mistake on his part. Either way, I don't think it is fair he is holding you to the deal under the circumstances but those do seem to be his terms.

Wholesale market levels for a 2 1/2 Indian in NGC MS 63 is about $850. If you see something dramatically below market, you should assume something is wrong. The price alone is a huge warning sign on this auction. That should tell you to read the entire auction carefully before bidding. If someone really was selling an NGC 63 $2 1/2 Indian for $595, it would not have set for a week without any bids. The auction is also private. That is another reason to read every word in the listing, twice.

WH

marz · January 23, 2007 11:21AM

Hey Wayne~! I love the flying eagle penny I bought from you!

Petarded · January 23, 2007 11:24AM

Seems to me that the image is CLEARLY of an NGS slab. A question to the seller would have been a wise thing, to clear that all up (assuming you scoped it out first, it would be a MUST to question it). Given the times of the item revision, the bid, and the auction's close, I dont see you coming out on top. For all intents and purposes, this could be seen as buyer's remorse from Paypal. I feel for ya, but thats must my 2C worth.

edited to add: wayne is right...as has been mentioned SOOOOOOOO many times here:
private auctions=travelling music!

Petescorner · January 23, 2007 11:27AM

The title is wrong and the description is wrong. Any seller worth a damn would own up to his mistake and give you your money back 100%. If he refuses, then he deserves a neg.

wayneherndon · January 23, 2007 11:32AM

Super! The FE did come with a full money back, no-nonsense guarantee. In fact, you could have return it even if the coin was everything you liked but you got in trouble with the significant other for spending too much! IMO, that is the way internet coin transactions should be handled. There are other dealers whom I highly respect that have different terms, however. This is a hobby for most and I people really shouldn't be stuck with a coin they don't like, particularly when there is some confusion in the description as here.

I have looked at this guys current offerings and don't see anymore with incorrect TPGs. I didn't look at his completed ones though. I see he has another NGS but has lowered the price on it.

WH

Bochiman · January 23, 2007 11:32AM

<< The title is wrong and the description is wrong. Any seller worth a damn would own up to his mistake and give you your money back 100%. If he refuses, then he deserves a neg. >>

291fifth · January 23, 2007 11:35AM

Not sure what kind of a case you have, probably not a very good one. The photos are of an NGS slab and the NGS clarification was added before you bid. As a "watcher" you are entitled to nothing. The seller can change the description or photos anytime up to 12 hours before closing if no bids have been placed. Was the description changed inside of 12 hours? I didn't know that was possible. Today, most coin buyers want to snipe so they are vulnerable to changes in the terms. I don't feel the least bit sorry for the snipers.

53BKid · January 23, 2007 11:36AM

Russ · January 23, 2007 11:37AM

<< The title is wrong and the description is wrong. Any seller worth a damn would own up to his mistake and give you your money back 100%. If he refuses, then he deserves a neg. >>

I agree that the seller should accept a return and refund his money, but don't you think Marz should accept some responsibility for his own actions? The slab was clearly pictured throughout the auction and clearly says NGS, and the auction was revised several hours before he placed his bid. It's an obvious case of a bidder blinded by what he thought was a chance at a rip.

Russ, NCNE

quattrocoins · January 23, 2007 11:37AM

<< So, basically if you open the package that he sent to you, you can not return it... This right here is obvious he knew what he was doing. (That is if he is a he, if not, then replace he with she and the statement still stands)

Some people should just be shot.

Just my opinion though. >>

Mine also!

Go for his jugular!

ilikebuffaloes · January 23, 2007 11:40AM

His return policy says that he will take it back less shipping and Paypal fees. If he issues a refund though Paypal, the fees are reversed as well, so there are no Paypal fees. If I were him, I would take it back and refund your money (less shipping) to avoid a negative feedback and Paypal chargebacks. Send him an e-mail and let him know that his auction is not 100% accurate and per is refund policy, you want to return the coin.

The listing is misleading, but there were signs.....

mcmxi · January 23, 2007 11:46AM

You haven't said what you think the coin grades. What does it look like?

wayneherndon · January 23, 2007 11:47AM

I think the refusal to accept a refund is the most likely indicator that the seller knew what he was doing.

If he had made an honest mistake and then partway corrected it. Later learned someone else was taken by the uncorrected portion of his mistake. Most straight up guys would immediate agree to a refund at that point.

WH

AnkurJ · January 23, 2007 11:47AM

I would cancel the credit card on the purchase, and send the coin back.

Something like this happened to me once....I sent the item back, and my bank wanted proof that it was sent back, so I gave them the delivery conf and insurance recipt. Got my refund in a day or two.

Ankur

53BKid · January 23, 2007 11:51AM

Sorry to hear of your trouble. Whether the guy did this on purpose or it was an 'honest mistake' is immaterial. So is the picture, (though in the future, I'm sure you'll be more careful before bidding, right?). You are perfectly within your rights to pursue action to obtain a refund on this purchase. As far as I know you can pursue any and all of the three options listed below:

1. On the left hand side of your 'My eBay' page, you should see 'Dispute Console' at the bottom of menu items. Once you click that you should see among the menu items, 'Items Not Received or Not as Described'. Follow the procedures.

2. You can tab down further onto the Related Links section, and tab 'Security & Resolution Center'. Hit Report a Problem, and I believe you will be redirected to a contact page where depending on your level of activity you may be able to contact them by phone, chat with someone online or email them your situation.

3. If you paid via Pay Pal, follow the procedures to enter a dispute.

In all these situations reference the buyers title and description. Tell them you paid promptly, and that upon inspecting the item you contacted the seller. Be sure to tell them that the seller refused to honor his refund policy which is clearly stated in the listing.

DO NOT THREATEN THE SELLER WITH NEGATIVE FEEDBACK. If you do you can be suspended for violation of eBay's policies.

I find it interesting that the guy hasn't had any negative feedback in the past, so my guess is he won't be retaliating against you if you're successful in pursuing a claim.

Wishing you good luck. I'm sure you'll get this worked out to your satisfaction.

ILikeMercs · January 23, 2007 12:02PM

WWRD?

wayneherndon · January 23, 2007 12:02PM

You haven't said what you think the coin grades.

Can I guess? I would venture that the coin is likely a 61 or 62. A 62 is the ideal candidate for a second (or third) tier TPG 63 shot. In PCGS or NGC plastic a 63 is $800+. A 62 is $400+. So the the PCGS or NGC 62 gets purchased for $400ish, cracked and sent to a TPG that is slightly looser grader and comes back 63. It then gets sold for $600 and everyone is happy. The seller made $200 and the buyer saved $200 over what a PCGS or NGC coin would have cost.

Crackout guys (whether they are putting the coins into PCGS/NGC holders or NGS/NTC/etc holders) focus on the grades just before the price jump. The look for a spread where a one point upgrade is worth a lot of money. If you see pricing structure as follows, which grades do you look for to try and upgrade?

60: $250
61: $335
62: $485
63: $875
64: $1370

The gain for one point upgrades from 60-61, 61-62 are too small to worry with considering grading and transaction costs (and the discount if using a second or third tier TPG). From 62-63 and 63-64, the increase is big enough to cover grading, transaction costs and some profit even after a discount for bad TPG. However, attempting a 63-64 upgrade requires the crackout guy to risk twice the capital for a potential gain that is only roughly the same as the 62-63 upgrade. Thus he can get twice the bites at the apple going for the 62-63 than he does for the 63-64. In summary, in the $2.50 Indian series, the 62 is the perfect coin for these guys to target for an upgrade.

WH

razzle · January 23, 2007 12:03PM

Marz,

I hate that it happened to you. These cons, like global, make the whole business of internet transactions a chilling experience. I have not read all the replies, but if you read the one from Twosides2acoin, and site his post in an e-mail to paypal, I'm confident you will prevail ( you have nothing to lose at this point ). Good luck, and please let us know.

raz

LALASD4 · January 23, 2007 12:04PM

Well, on one hand you should have been more care, on the other hand it does seem like he was trying to misled people.

You could dispute it but I think your chances is at best 50/50.

segoja · January 23, 2007 12:12PM

The published return policy is clear. Item had some description errors.

File a paypal dispute..hopefully you paid with a credit card.

Also contact your card company.

I wouldn't send it back until you get clear instructions from Paypal, and then send it registered US Mail.

Why oh Why do people think there is a free lunch on E-BAY???

53BKid · January 23, 2007 12:16PM

With the return policy, his chances are 100/0.

No doubt he'll get the refund, and the seller will receive a computor generated notice informing him of his responsibilities in following their listing policies.

BlindedByEgo · January 23, 2007 12:17PM

<< 

<< The title is wrong and the description is wrong. Any seller worth a damn would own up to his mistake and give you your money back 100%. If he refuses, then he deserves a neg. >>

I agree that the seller should accept a return and refund his money, but don't you think Marz should accept some responsibility for his own actions? The slab was clearly pictured throughout the auction and clearly says NGS, and the auction was revised several hours before he placed his bid. It's an obvious case of a bidder blinded by what he thought was a chance at a rip.

Russ, NCNE >>

Yes.

storm888 · January 23, 2007 12:49PM

"No doubt he'll get the refund, and the seller will receive a computer
generated notice informing him of his responsibilities in following their
listing policies. "

///////////////////////////////////////

This burn is a slam-dunk for a refund from PayPal, first resort;
credit-card company, last resort.

If PayPal says "no," just call your credit card company.

Just follow the steps in the Dispute Console, and do not get
angry or threatening. Give PayPal the paperwork they ask for
and a copy of the listing. When PayPal - or the CC company -
tells you to return the item, use insured Priority with BOTH
Delivery Confirmation and Domestic Return Receipt.

A misleading title leaves the seller w/o a valid defense. The
voice of experience is speaking to you on that point. He has
also, apparently, failed to comply with his own refund policy.

Many people do not bother to re-read the listing after the item is
in their watch-list; they just bid. Always a good idea to read the
thing one last time before you hit go.

All that said, if this was an honest mistake on the part of the
seller, this thread would not be here. He would have granted
the refund request instantly.

storm

GoldenEyeNumismatics · January 23, 2007 12:52PM

false advertising, threaten to neg him if he doesnt refund

Got swindled on E-bay~ need input?

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