Grade Revealed -- 1873 (Open 3) PCGS MS-61 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle -- New Heritage FU

Stuart · January 5, 2007 11:44AM

I invite you to participate in this latest episode of "Guess the Grade" by voting in the poll for the following 1873 $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle.

Please also post your grading criteria plus any other comments or observations about the coin that you'd like to share to keep the thread lively and active.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

1873 (Open 3) PCGS MS-61 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle

BloodMan · January 5, 2007 12:29PM

1873 Open 3 -- most common Type 2 $20.

PCGS holder--Hairline scratches present on obverse fields and to lesser extent on reverse, but it is free of large detracting hits. The coin appears to have proof-like character, which might amplify the hairlines. Likely to be “net” graded due to hairlines, but details-wise looks MS63.

CDN Quarterly Values

AU58 - $675
MS60 - $800
MS62 - $2500
MS63 - $10250
MS63 - $26250

ziggy29 · January 5, 2007 12:31PM

Looks 63 to me, but based on the price guide and your proclivity for buying PQ coins for the grade, I'll say 62.

Longacre · January 5, 2007 12:57PM

Solid 63

Stuart · January 5, 2007 2:31PM

Bloodman: Thanks for your descriptive post, and your intriguing observation that this coin might have "prooflike character". I agree that there is a bit of contrast between the lightly frosted Liberty profile and the satiny lustrous fields.

This example appears to be very well struck for a Type 2 $20 Liberty with pretty cartwheel luster.

Longacre and Ziggy, thanks also for your posts.

Stuart · January 6, 2007 12:58AM

For the morning shift...

TwoSides2aCoin · January 6, 2007 1:25AM

If you cracked it out you could dupe an unsuspecting newbie into thinking it was MS 65.

I tend to agree with Bloodman on 63 as a net grade. There are spots on the reverse that are not very attractive. Maybe the graders excused the rub as typical wear or "hairlines" but the pattern of those scratches on the obverse suggests more than hairlines and definitely an oversight if it's in PCGS plastic, in my opinion

If that is PCGS plastic then maybe the punishment is MS61 or AU58, but if it's in PCGS plastic, I wouldn't crack it out unless you were hoping to cheat someone.

Where'd Saint Guru get that flamethrower suit ?
Hi Coinhusker & Son, I miss ya brothers !

There're my comments in a nutshell, Stu

Stuart · January 6, 2007 2:19AM

TwoSides2aCoin: Thanks for your post and for sharing your observations about this 1873 $20 Liberty.

RYK · January 6, 2007 2:30AM

I am not getting suckered again.

I am going to guess AU-58. I think that there is some rub (discoloration) on the cheek. If not, there are some hairlines on the lower half of the obverse which would net down an MS coin. PCGS hates hairlines on gold coins. Bottom line: best guess is 58. If there is no rub, 61.

You guys who guessed 63 do realize that a 63 is a $12,000-15,000 coin, don't you?

PS Mark Feld, if you are reading this and I am way off, please save the email until AFTER the PCGS grade is posted.

JRocco · January 6, 2007 3:19AM

Hi Stuart,
I believe that I do see breaks on that coin and have to put it in the AU category. Nice coin though. PCGS might have spanked it into a 55 holder due to the lines and the rub, but it should be in a 58 holder IMO.
I see no way that coin ever sees a 65 in our lifetimes.
Without the rub I believe I see, it would go 63, but my opinion is 58

291fifth · January 6, 2007 3:27AM

MS61 but probably slabbed as MS62 or 63.

roadrunner · January 6, 2007 4:19AM

I'm figuring Stuart owns this so no way would he pay 63 for 63 quality

And after getting smoked on the last guess the grade I'm tempted to say AU58 but I know he's trying to trick us again......so......

MS61

roadrunner

Stuart · January 6, 2007 2:33PM

This will be the last chance to participate in this latest episode of "Guess the Grade" for this 1873 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle before I post the answer when this thread sinks down to page 2 or 3 into U.S. Coin Forum oblivion either later tonight or early Sunday morning.

With a total of 22 votes so far, we have a most interesting broad spread of grades for this poll, with approximately 70% of voters guessing evenly between the 3 grades of MS-63, MS-62 and MS-61, and 17% guessing MS-60 or below which creates quite a wide standard of deviation between 7 grades as follows:

Total Votes: 22

MS-65 or Higher :-) 0 (votes) 0.00 (%)
MS-64 1 (votes) 4.55 (%)
MS-63 5 (votes) 22.73 (%)
MS-62 5 (votes) 22.73 (%)
MS-61 5 (votes) 22.73 (%)
MS-60 2 (votes) 9.09 (%)
AU-58 2 (votes) 9.09 (%)
AU-55 or Lower :-( 2 (votes) 9.09 (%)

Connecticoin · January 6, 2007 2:48PM

61, due to the hairlines.

clackamas · January 6, 2007 3:52PM

Who is the person that voted MS64? C'mon, say who you are.

IMO, that is a text book AU58 Slider. The Reverse looks MS but that looks like wear on the obverse.

BlindedByEgo · January 6, 2007 4:02PM

I will posit AU58 for the same reasons cited by the others guessing the same. Thanks for posting a lovely coin such as this1873 $20 Gold Liberty Double Eagle.

oreville · January 6, 2007 4:42PM

I graded this coin an MS-61 as a net graded coin. It is possible that PCGS could have graded this coin as low as AU-58 or as high as MS-62 depending on how the hairlines appear to the naked eye and whether the obverse has actual wear based on what appears to be loss of luster on the high points of the nose, eyebrows and hair.

If PCGS graded this coin a MS-63, I would immediately request a reduction in the grade. Too many negatives.

Pluses:
Hardly any bag marks deep or even shallow bag marks for that matter.
Highly lustrous
Reverse is MS-63 even close to MS-64 quality (except of course for the carbon spots and hairlines)
Nice strike
Coin has the initial appearance of even a higher grade and thus looks superficially PQ for the actual grade

Minuses:

Coin appears to have been dipped. Such dipping makes the contrast between the bright gold color and the spots on the reverse more of an unnatural combination
Loss of possible luster on the high points on the obverse
hairlines
Spotting
the coin looks less and less nice when inspecting up close.

This is an 1861 in PCGS AU-58 that I own for comparative purposes:

coinnerd · January 6, 2007 5:03PM

58 at worst. No better than 62 at the best. The hairlines on obverse will be the factor.

Stuart · January 7, 2007 1:41AM

Oreville: Thanks for taking the time to post some excellent observations about the subject coin of this thread 1873 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle.

Thanks to all others who have also taken the time to post their thoughts and observations about this coin which have kept this thread active and lively.

I'll be disclosing the grade later this morning, along with the "Rest of the Story".

maddogale · January 7, 2007 1:54AM

Stuart, I would think this would be a 58 just because with those hairlines even at the lower magnification, PCGS (if that is the holder which it seems to be) would knock it down for those. Beautiful coin though, and I know NOTHING about grading these puppies!!

The luster in the fields is outstanding.

techeff · January 7, 2007 2:06AM

That's 60/61. And I hope you're not going to pull another friggin' 58 on us. That just ain't fair when playing with pics...

Stuart · January 7, 2007 2:38AM

Thanks to everyone who voted in the poll and also for your posts with informative observations about my new 1873 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle which is graded PCGS MS-61.

I am always impressed with how much descriptive information our astute forum members can ascertain from a couple of digital coin images, and typically learn quite a bit about specific coins by psoting photos, and reading forum member comments and observations about these coins.

With a total of 44 votes, we have a most interesting broad spread of grades for this poll, with approximately 65% of voters selecting almost evenly between the 3 grades of MS-63, MS-62 and MS-61, and 30% guessing MS-60 or below which creates quite a wide standard of deviation between 7 grades as follows:

Total Votes: 44 MS-65 or Higher :-) 0 (votes) 0.00 (%) MS-64 2 (votes) 4.55 (%) MS-63 10 (votes) 22.73 (%) MS-62 11 (votes) 25.00 (%) MS-61 8 (votes) 18.18 (%) MS-60 2 (votes) 4.55 (%) AU-58 7 (votes) 15.91 (%) AU-55 or Lower :-( 4 (votes) 9.09 (%) The "Rest of the Story" is that I am pleased to have purchased this coin this week during Heritage's FUN Auction Friday session. I am really excited about acquiring this coin, and am very much looking forward to receiving it (like a kid waiting for Holiday presents). I decided to bid on this attractive coin for a combination of the hammered strike, strong cartwheel mint luster and relatively few detracting contact marks for a Type 2, which I find are typically plagued by distracting contact marks.

I am typically not as concerned about some minor hairlines and a few copper spots on the reverse, as long as the coin has the above-mentioned characteristics because I am purchasing it as a type coin, and not for either investment, upgrade or resale.

I am very pleased with the quality of Heritage's auction photos, including the high resolution images and also the Pan & Zoom option.

1873 (Open 3) PCGS MS-61 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle

mrpaseo · January 7, 2007 2:41AM

I see alot of hairline scratches which brought me down off 65, then the two black spots on the reverse brought me down to 63, the luster is popping and truthfully I have NO idea how to grade... I do like the coin though, it seems like a nice hard strike.

mrpaseo · January 7, 2007 2:44AM

<< <i>I see alot of hairline scratches which brought me down off 65, then the two black spots on the reverse brought me down to 63, the luster is popping and truthfully I have NO idea how to grade... I do like the coin though, it seems like a nice hard strike. >>

Now that I read through the thread... it's obvious I have no idea how to grade

TG for TPG

TwoSides2aCoin · January 7, 2007 2:48AM

Sorry to be so hard on my assessment

I'm just trying to knock value out so I can acquire them at lower prices

Stuart · January 7, 2007 4:56AM

<< Sorry to be so hard on my assessment >>

TwoSides2aCoin: Thanks for your above quoted post. However, there is no need to apologize, as the purpose of these threads is to have some fun and to feel comfortable voicing some honest opinions about some interesting and hopefully thought provoking coins.

coltgus · January 7, 2007 5:02AM

I'm late to the party for guess the grade but I think it's extremely nice for the grade.
Good purchase.

Dennis88 · January 7, 2007 6:08AM

Nice coin for the grade

Stuart · January 7, 2007 7:59AM

Dennis88 and ColtGus: Thanks very much for your posts and for your kind words about my new 1873 $20 Liberty. I am really looking forward to receiving this one to examine it in person.

oreville · January 7, 2007 8:55AM

Stuart:

You said:

<< <i>......and 30% guessing MS-60 or below which creates quite a wide standard of deviation between 7 grades as follows: >>

It really isn't surprising at all. This coin is an interesting conglomeration (sic?) of wonderful near MS-64 attributes as well as AU-58 attributes plus all the in-between grade attributes!!

For the price you paid (which you informed me afterwards) you did well and you paid essentially a MS-60 price.

It is also possible that the hairlines look more pronounced than they really are due to the enlarged photographs.

JRocco · January 7, 2007 9:31AM

For me those hairlines are not a problem at all. If this were a high end 65+ coin then I want to see a lined free coin. The thing I love about this coin and the thing I think makes this a GREAT pick-up is how clean the coin is from the usual hits. Gold is so darn soft that to see a 61 looking like this is real treat. If you got this one for anywhere near 60 money you darn near stole it Stuart. Did good on this one buddy.
Nice coin

Stuart · January 7, 2007 11:03AM

Oreville and JRocco: Thanks for your posts mentioning that this coin has great eye appeal for the assigned grade, with which I agree.

Grade Revealed -- 1873 (Open 3) PCGS MS-61 $20 Gold Liberty (Type 2) Double Eagle -- New Heritage FU

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