Wow, I just found a counterfeit 1923-D Peace dollar. (PIX ADDED)

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 3:14AM

I was going through a batch of my silver dollars today and came across one that just looked fake. I couldn't put my finger on why it looked fake, except for the greyish color. It is a 1923-D with about XF+ to AU details.

So I got out the loupe and noticed some faint, tiny squiggly things above the date, like evidence of casting, maybe. And the "D" mintmark is a blob- it's filled, unlike the D on the genuine coins I have.

The coin looks okay at a cursory glance- no weird looking letters, good reeded edge, and it sort of rings like silver. But it's five or six grams underweight.

Weird.

Rather than being disappointed, I find it rather intriguing. It is a good quality counterfeit, I reckon.

I'll try to post a scan later.

Anybody need a counterfeit Peace dollar for something? (Edit: apparently someone did. It's sold.)

airplanenut · December 18, 2006 3:24AM

I could use it. I'm planning on moving to China and opening an eBay coin business.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 3:26AM

Maybe I'll keep it as a pocket piece.

It's kinda cool. I would call it a fairly deceptive counterfeit.

unknowncomic · December 18, 2006 3:28AM

LM what do you want for it ?

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 3:31AM

I dunno.

I reckon I'd sell it for the nine or ten bucks I must've paid for it originally when I thought I was buying a real coin.

I wonder if this isn't a contemporary job. Seems strange for somebody to counterfeit that date, otherwise.

It's too good for a Chinese job, unless it's a skilled Chinese job.

Wolf359 · December 18, 2006 3:32AM

The 34-d has a blob mintmark...make sure it's not off-metal or a wrong planchet error. Couterfeits usually weigh correctly.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 3:34AM

But this is a 1923-D.

I am 98% convinced it's a fake, now, though I didn't spot it at first.

I'll try to scan it later, but I gotta go pick up my daughter in a few minutes.

Newb · December 18, 2006 3:36AM

Hey Lord, that's very cool. The guys here told me this was a fake as well. Thing is, it came from my Grandad who died in '55 and ran a country store in the 30's and 40's, so I assume he received it back then. He saved about 250 or so Morgans and Peaces and this came from that hoard.

ziggy29 · December 18, 2006 3:38AM

Cool. I know there are counterfeit 1923-D Mercs (which don't really exist), but it's interesting to see a fake common-date Peace dollar.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 3:40AM

That Morgan would've fooled me.

This Peace dollar did too, at first, until I got the loupe to it and really started examining it.

I think your Morgan is a slightly better job.

Newb · December 18, 2006 3:45AM

<< That Morgan would've fooled me.

This Peace dollar did too, at first, until I got the loupe to it and really started examining it.

I think your Morgan is a slightly better job. >>

It sure as heck fooled me. The guys said the tiny die crack in betwee the "U" and the "M" in UNUM was the key.

Coxe · December 18, 2006 4:10AM

Yep, that Morgan fooled the best for a long time. It is a VAM-22. The counterfeiters used the same obverse for the now notoriously counterfeited 1900-o micro o. The scratches in UNUM are the key pickup point.

Newb · December 18, 2006 4:23AM

So Coxe, (with apologies to LMC for the threadjack)

What's the history on these things? Was it one guy making them? How were they made? Do you have a link I can check out on the manufacturing process to save you a response that I'm sure you've typed a thousand times?

Thanks

RichieURich · December 18, 2006 4:43AM

A magical counterfeit date. I'd like to buy it and I would love to buy one of the counterfeit 1923-D or 1930-D dimes that are out there, does anyone have any for sale?

messydesk · December 18, 2006 5:04AM

<< So Coxe, (with apologies to LMC for the threadjack)

What's the history on these things? Was it one guy making them? How were they made? Do you have a link I can check out on the manufacturing process to save you a response that I'm sure you've typed a thousand times?

Thanks >>

In addition to the three now infamous micro O counterfeits that were identified, there are at least 5 other die pairs that came from the same outfit (or Outfit). They were probably all made before 1910, since high-enough grade circulated coins dating back to 1896 were available as hosts. There's been quite a bit written here on those coins. The search button is your friend.

Julian · December 18, 2006 5:05AM

I do not believe that the 1900-o Morgan dollar pictured here is counterfeit.

I would very much like to see a scan of of the 23-d.

Coxe · December 18, 2006 5:19AM

<< So Coxe, (with apologies to LMC for the threadjack)

What's the history on these things? Was it one guy making them? How were they made? Do you have a link I can check out on the manufacturing process to save you a response that I'm sure you've typed a thousand times?

Thanks >>

Noone knows the circumstances of the micro o (and that) counterfeits except that they did circulate contemporary with their Mint produced peers in the early 20th century.

This is actually more interesting than many VAM collectors realize. Much of the focus on the micro o VAMs has been in lookin gat the reverse die for evidence that its die was created from a Mint relased coin's reverse. However, little attention was placed on the obverse dies. The scratches on the die used for the 1900-O counterfeits are used for attribution. However, the die is far more interesting than that. The date position is very near with the 1 also close to the rim. I located and sent a 1900-O with such a date, without the counterfeit's scratches, to Leroy recently enough. It was not the coin used for the micro o die creation due to the precise digit alignments. Leroy declined giving me a new designation BTW due to wear to tell id there was any die doubling, ... That was disappointing. Before someone says the die was the one used for the VAM-11 (O/CC), it is not. Leroy gave it the same obverse die in the catalogue simply becaus eit was a very near date, not the same very near date. It also is not the same as the micro o and VAM-22 (and mine). The only known possibility is that it was from the 1900-S VAM-18 and Leroy and I don't have one nor photos of one to confirm that. So this is a current mystery that should interest VAM folks.

Coxe · December 18, 2006 5:33AM

<< I do not believe that the 1900-o Morgan dollar pictured here is counterfeit.

I would very much like to see a scan of of the 23-d. >>

Julian -- That coin is definitely a counterfeit, a very good counterfeit. The obverse die used on the confirmed counterfeit VAM-5 (micro o) is identical with die scratches (see below) that are unmistakable among other points that were clearly not Mint produced. What is intriguing about that connection is the fact that we now know the counterfeiters not only used a reverse die with a type I (micro) o mintmark, but also a type III (round medium) O mintmark. Their work is always found in circulated grades, so the hunt is on for more counterfeit varieties of other dates using that reverse that only appear circulated and well circulated almost as a rule. Identifying the 1896-O VAM-4 and 1902-O VAM-3 obverses for the likely pairings would be worthwhile. Also, it seems reasonable to assume they did three obverses and three reverses to balance things out. The speculated third reverse might be another mintmark or no mintmark.

messydesk · December 18, 2006 5:42AM

LM, if you're going to be at FUN, bring it to VAM Thing IV on Friday afternoon. Several people here would like to see it and will be in attendance, along with a couple other people you may have heard of (Bill Fivaz, Leroy Van Allen). There's quite a bit of morbid fascination with good quality contemporary counterfeits. If you're not going to be there, lend (or sell) it to someone who will be.

KeithinMD · December 18, 2006 5:53AM

That 1900-O is unbelievable, if indeed fake. But you VAM guys do know what you are talking about. Thanks for the information. The scan of the 1923-D should be interesting too.

NumisOxide · December 18, 2006 6:00AM

That 1900-O is a very desceptive fake.

anablep · December 18, 2006 6:32AM

I'm in awe of the 1900-O being a fake and can't wait to see the 23-D LM is speaking of.

I learned something new here today.

Thanks guys.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 6:35AM

OK, here are the pics of the Peace dollar. Note the apparent seam around the reverse rim. Also, there are some little swirly things (raised) to the left of the designer's initials. I circled them in the picture below. And of course there's the weird mintmark.

This is definitely a fake, but it almost certainly would've passed in circulation with no problems. Heck, it circulated among coin collectors and dealers for a while without anyone noticing. I can't remember who I got it from but I am fairly sure it was from a forum member, as a part of larger lot.

Here are the raised squigglies. They didn't scan very well. The scrape between the 9 and 2 of the date that looks like it is showing a coppery color is in fact a trick of the scanner- it shows silver beneath (or silver color, anyway).

Wolf359 · December 18, 2006 6:39AM

Almost looks like a railroad rim.

Coxe · December 18, 2006 6:44AM

Looks real to me, but a 1923-S, not D. That is just a dig above the date. A lot of circulated Peace dollars don't look pretty.

CaptHenway · December 18, 2006 6:48AM

Both of them look real. What is wrong with the 1900-O? What are the weights?

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 6:49AM

<< That is just a dig above the date >>

No, it ain't. It's raised metal. And not raised metal that resulted from a dig or hit, either.

The raised blobby stuff is over the little nick, there. It barely shows in my scan.

Note that there's another little blobbie thing near the point of the bust. Again, raised metal.

Coxe · December 18, 2006 6:54AM

<< 

<< That is just a dig above the date >>

No, it ain't. It's raised metal. And not raised metal that resulted from a dig or hit, either. >>

Isn't the raised metal from a dig right below it? (Same inder the designer's initials.) I see a lot of those things and it really looks like it from the image.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 6:54AM

<< What are the weights? >>

I don't entirely trust my new digital scale, which read 29g on two different regular Peace dollars (more than the Redbook states for their weight), but it said something like 21g on this one. It is definitely a little underweight. You can feel it if you hold it and a real one in opposite hands.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 6:57AM

<< Isn't the raised metal from a dig right below it? >>

There IS a nick there, right below the raised metal, but the raised area didn't result from it, as best I can tell. And there is no corresponding nick or hit to explain the other little raised blob at the base of the bust, just to the right of the point.

Coxe · December 18, 2006 7:00AM

The one at the bust and top left of the 3 are different.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 7:03AM

Yeah, there is a little "wart" at the top left of the 3, now that you mention it.

Interesting that you see the mintmark as an S. I suppose it could be. It definitely looks that way in my pics.

But it sure looks like a filled D, in hand.

My scans suck, BTW.

See? I TOLD you this was a good fake!

But I am almost certain it is just that- fake.

lordmarcovan · December 18, 2006 7:06AM

There are also a couple of tiny "pimples" in the general area where that wart to the top left of the 3 is, but they don't show in my scan.

messydesk · December 18, 2006 11:51PM

Looks like a pretty good fake, aided by the fact that the Peace dollar design doesn't have any sharp details that would be the dead giveaway for a fake with the exception of the designer's initials and, on this coin, the mintmark.

PerryHall · December 19, 2006 12:03AM

<< Looks real to me, but a 1923-S, not D. That is just a dig above the date. A lot of circulated Peace dollars don't look pretty. >>

That mint mark also looks like an S to me.

Wow, I just found a counterfeit 1923-D Peace dollar. (PIX ADDED)

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