Question on NGC ultra cameo proof coin grading.

Lionel · November 24, 2006 3:45PM

It seems that every NGC PF69 coin I've ever seen advertised is "ultra cameo".

Is "ultra cameo" synonymous with PF69? Is there ever a PF69 "so so cameo" or something like that?

I understand the coin grading system well enough, but I don't understand the "cameo" qualifiers that are applied to proof coins.

Does each grading service have it's own qualifier terms? I've seen "deep cameo" used too.

lordmarcovan · November 24, 2006 4:12PM

<< <i>Is "ultra cameo" synonymous with PF69? >>

No. But many modern proof coins come from the mint as UCAM (or DCAM, if you use the PCGS abbreviation). Earlier proof coins may or may not be encountered in Cameo or Deep Cameo state. If they are non-cameo, they are usually referred to as "brilliant" proofs, with no special designation on a slab label.

Lionel · November 24, 2006 4:18PM

So "cameo" seem to refer to the relief. Or, the style in which the coin was struck.

Thanks!

lordmarcovan · November 24, 2006 4:23PM

"Cameo" refers to a coin that has deeply mirrored fields and frosted devices, while a normal, "Brilliant" proof has mirrored fields and devices, without the frost. A "Deep Cameo" coin (or, in NGC's case, an "Ultra Cameo" coin) will have a higher degree of contrast between the mirrored fields and frosted devices. It's all about contrast.

Let me see if I can borrow pictures from somebody to help illustrate the difference. Does anybody have pictures of three different coins (preferably of the same type) in brilliant, Cameo, and Deep Cameo, to show the difference?

michael · November 24, 2006 4:27PM

It seems that every NGC PF69 coin I've ever seen advertised is "ultra cameo".

Is "ultra cameo" synonymous with PF69?

most likely YES!!!!

with modern coinage all are the same super gem ultra cameo grades

same old same old

kind of like snickers bars coming off of the line....you eat it tastes good all full of trans fats and in the end has a really bad after taste and a poor choice to eat in the first place

Lionel · November 24, 2006 4:40PM

Thanks lordmarcovan,

I understand the difference. I've seen old silver proof coins that have the mirrored fields and devices, so I belive I know what you are referring to.

BTW, you wouldn't by chance know the first year that a "ultra cameo" coin was minted, would you? I don't, but I'd like to know. It seems like more of a modern thing.

lordmarcovan · November 24, 2006 4:47PM

OK, for lack of any pictures to demonstrate, I spun through the Franklin halves on eBay. (A series where the difference between brilliant proofs, CAM proofs, and DCAM proofs is pretty marked, and has a big effect on prices).

I used all PCGS examples. Note that other services have different standards as to what CAM versus DCAM is, with the "Third World" services being particularly lax.

First, a brilliant proof example. (PCGS PR66). Note that the portrait and devices are mirrored like the rest of the coin.

link

Next, a Cameo proof. (PCGS PR66 CAM). Note that the devices are whiter, frostier, with some contrast from the brilliant fields.

link

Lastly, a Deep Cameo proof (PCGS PR67 DCAM). These coins are so frosty, with a "black and white" effect, that it looks like icing spread on a cake.

link

Not the best tutorial, since I had to use pictures borrowed from three different places, but hopefully you get the idea.

Before the late 1960s or so, cameo proofs were rarer, since only the first few coins off the dies had the CAM or DCAM contrast. But in the last 35 years or so, innovations in the preparation of proof dies allow most if not all of the coins struck to be CAM or DCAM.

Lionel · November 24, 2006 4:53PM

Thanks lordmarcovan!

I'd never seen a DCAM Franklin Half before. Wow, it's beautiful, and that's obviously reflected in the price (I looked at the EBAY listing).

I also didn't know that a single type of coin could come in all three styles.

Thanks for all your work to enlighten me.

I'm calling it a day.

lordmarcovan · November 24, 2006 4:57PM

Proof coins have been struck at least as far back as the 18th century (maybe longer than that, for all I know). The earliest I remember seeing was a 1773 British gold guinea- boy, was that a sight.

Here are two earlier proofs I once owned.

This Barber half was a CAM.

Look at the reverse of it, though, in this smaller picture I once used as an avatar.

DCAM all the way! But since the obverse was only CAM, it only made CAM overall, despite the "black and white" DCAM reverse.

Here was a nice oldie I once had from Boiler78. Probably my favorite coin I have ever owned through traditional collecting means. An Irish gilt proof penny.

It was graded NGC PF 64 CAM. It too was pretty close to DCAM in some respects. A 200-year-old Cameo proof, and a big, nearly dollar-sized coin that looked like gold (actually was gold, on the outer layer). That thing was a sight to behold. I really miss it and rather regret selling it now.

I cannot recall offhand what the oldest DCAM (or UCAM) coin I have seen is.

pf70collector · November 24, 2006 10:20PM

Actually NGC does give out just the cameo designation without the ultra cameo. I have a 70 state quarter with just a cameo designation. So there is a distinction between the two as well for ultra moderns though it is not common.

Steve · November 25, 2006 12:50AM

Almost ALL of the proof coins minted by the US Mint since the early 1980's are considered deep cameo or ultra cameo by the two leading grading services. (PCGS & NGC) Steve

123cents · November 25, 2006 1:14AM

I had a Dolly Madison Commemorative Dollar that was graded PF-69CAM by NGC not UCAM.

Lionel · November 25, 2006 3:51AM

Interesting.

I've never been a big fan of "barber" coins because my main interest is in moderns. However, when I see a proof barber half it really looks amazing.

Zoins · November 25, 2006 3:54AM

<< <i>I've never been a big fan of "barber" coins because my main interest is in moderns. However, when I see a proof barber half it really looks amazing. >>

Wait long enough and the US Mint may bring back the Barber design on a new coin like they've been doing with many old designs.

RichieURich · November 25, 2006 5:24AM

Nice illustrative pictures, Lordmarcovan!

Question on NGC ultra cameo proof coin grading.

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