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Is eBay the 800 pound gorilla?
Outhaul
Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
What are your feelings?
IMHO, all the hucksters, scamsters, etc. who sell in ALL categories will eventually be eBay's undoing. The coin category has become a haven for scamsters who operate quite freely. All other catgories suffer the same, particularly the "collectible" categories. While most of us on the forums remain vigilant and continue to report suspect auctions, the same cannot be said for the rest of the collecting community. As more people get burned fewer will shop eBay.
I see a day (optomistically) in the not too distant future when eBay will be in serious touble if they do not attack the problem more aggressively.
Your thoughts?
Cheers,
Bob
IMHO, all the hucksters, scamsters, etc. who sell in ALL categories will eventually be eBay's undoing. The coin category has become a haven for scamsters who operate quite freely. All other catgories suffer the same, particularly the "collectible" categories. While most of us on the forums remain vigilant and continue to report suspect auctions, the same cannot be said for the rest of the collecting community. As more people get burned fewer will shop eBay.
I see a day (optomistically) in the not too distant future when eBay will be in serious touble if they do not attack the problem more aggressively.
Your thoughts?
Cheers,
Bob
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Comments
I'd love to be wrong about that and I'd love to see someone knock eBay off their high horse -- but in this specific line of business, I think it will be VERY hard to do that.
<< <i>FWIW, I have been constantly outbid on fakes recently. The competition is pretty strong. >>
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
eBay has improved over the last several years with the “report this item” button in each auction and the “buyer protection” offered by eBay, PayPal and the increased use of credit cards.
Last year I bought a $12,000 item from a new 0 feedback seller and wasn’t worried the least about it. Course I called the seller on the phone to make sure he was for real and used escrow.
One of my very intelligent, frugal & tightwad but naive friends thought he got a GREAT deal on a $10,000 item several months and it never struck him as odd that the seller was overseas and the backhoe was in Minnesota. When he went to make the Western Union wire they told him it wasn’t such a good idea. Greedy dumbasses like that is what keeps the scammers & fraud going.
<< <i>I think the timid, casual eBayers might be scared off but the experienced buyers that apply due diligence will keep eBay thriving.
eBay has improved over the last several years with the “report this item” button in each auction and the “buyer protection” offered by eBay, PayPal and the increased use of credit cards.
Last year I bought a $12,000 item from a new 0 feedback seller and wasn’t worried the least about it. Course I called the seller on the phone to make sure he was for real and used escrow.
One of my very intelligent, frugal & tightwad but naive friends thought he got a GREAT deal on a $10,000 item several months and it never struck him as odd that the seller was overseas and the backhoe was in Minnesota. When he went to make the Western Union wire they told him it wasn’t such a good idea. Greedy dumbasses like that is what keeps the scammers & fraud going. >>
<< <i>Text >>
AAJ
I see no different statistical reasons with e-bay buyers, new generations are entering the buying market every second of the day. There is and will be no end.
Maybe e-bay will implode one day, but it won't be because of just the coin section, it's going to have to be a major disaster.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I do agree with Dog. I have been selling collectibles, including modern coins, on eBay for over 8 years and Ebay has continued to improve its environment. In the old days on eBay it was just like being in a room full of monkeys!
AAJ >>
CJCollector
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
And scammers are a problem, and will always be a problem.
But if you think about it, eBay is the world's flea market. There is such a huge variety of stuff out there, and so many sellers. Sure, many of those sellers are sleazeballs, just like at a real flea market. But there are also a lot of bargains out there.
I think if one keeps the flea market metaphor in mind, and takes precautions accordingly, it need not be a bad thing. Personally, I enjoyed my early days selling coins at a flea market, though some of the social situations were hilarious and many were annoying.
Or if you don't like the metaphor of a redneck flea market, think of a Turkish bazaar or something like that. The wide array of merchandise. The color. The noise. The sheer exotic appeal of it. But also the pickpockets and thieves and crooked merchants.
It's all part of the big picture.
I'm sure eBay will get their nose rubbed in some poop over the activities of their less-savory members, but when you think about how huge the whole thing has gotten, it's a wonder they're able to police it as much as they do.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
Many times I have lost money selling off my duplicates on eBay because I mention every negative point of a coin and post large images. I sleep well, but could never make a living selling coins with full disclosure.
What would it take to build a better 800 pound gorilla? Perhaps eBay may fade if 8 excellent 100 pound primates offer 8 better venues for trading items in their area of expertise. eBay could someday lose its popularity as a coin buying/selling site if some organization (ANA?) ever gets serious about full disclosure and grading standards, but I don't see any policing organization coming up with the bucks and manpower to vet such a large volume.
If you think about it, when you are buying coins from the average Joe out there, the downside potential is not much worse than it is buying via mailorder from a lot of dealers (you know how often you can still get overgraded junk from even the big guys), and the upside potential is far greater (it's far more likely you'll get a nice cherrypick from the average Joe than from a dealer). And with the auction format, you can look at pictures first, and decide what you want to bid. It's wonderful. In spite of its darker side, think of how online auctions and eBay in particular have revolutionized the way we buy and sell. Would I want to go back to the old days of looking for bargains in the NN classifieds, sight-unseen? No way.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
K S
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
I remember the days when selling to dealers was the only alternative collectors had. I don't miss the low-ball offers and bad-mouthing in the least.
<< <i>I remember the days when selling to dealers was the only alternative collectors had. I don't miss the low-ball offers and bad-mouthing in the least. >>
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
-David
<< <i> Is eBay the 800 pound gorilla? >>
Well it's there..there's no doubt about it and it's hard to get around it.If it's something you want ...you'll find it in the Bay...
It's no different than looking for something elsewhere.Know before you buy..!!..It's the same old story.If your ignorant to the fact of what you are looking for and have a pocket full of cash...your gonna get ripped off and swallowed up...Don't blame the Bay....!!!
<< <i>I for one rather enjoy the flea market aspect of it, for one reason: it is nice to be able to buy from the average Joe instead of being beholden to dealers, who have fixed ideas of what things are worth and what should be charged for them. This is the reason I loved the Numismatic News classifieds in my pre-computer days. And why all my best used cars have been bought through word of mouth rather than off a dealer's lot. (I've never owned a new car).
If you think about it, when you are buying coins from the average Joe out there, the downside potential is not much worse than it is buying via mailorder from a lot of dealers (you know how often you can still get overgraded junk from even the big guys), and the upside potential is far greater (it's far more likely you'll get a nice cherrypick from the average Joe than from a dealer). And with the auction format, you can look at pictures first, and decide what you want to bid. It's wonderful. In spite of its darker side, think of how online auctions and eBay in particular have revolutionized the way we buy and sell. Would I want to go back to the old days of looking for bargains in the NN classifieds, sight-unseen? No way. >>
What's the difference between a used car salesman and a used coin salesman on eBay? The used car salesman knows when he's lying! The used coin salesman just hopes to avoid negative eBay feedback which references his lack of meaningful description.
I also appreciate finding the occasional honest Joe on eBay who sells off duplicates from his collection or coins he's to stupid to describe in detail. The average Joe collector on eBay will describe his duplicates to the best of his ability, as required by eBay and the ANA. A few average Joe sellers will post pictures decent enough from which the buyer can make an educated guess. Unfortunately, eBay auctions are now mostly offernings trolling for a sucker or a specialized buyer who must have the coin. Smart coin sellers on eBay intentionally do not disclose a coin's problems or even offer their opinion of how they would grade their coin if they were buying it.
eBay has been upfront about turning their venue from a bunch of fellow collectors into one that rewards professional sellers. Their reputation grew five or seven years ago as a community of buyers and sellers who could connect online for reasonable fees. eBay was an attractive 200 pound gorilla in those days. Since they have welcomed and rewarded professional used coin dealers and used car dealers alike, they have ballooned to 800 pounds, and have been able to pass along any fee increases they desire, given the absence of no other serious gorillas in the jungle. Their former community is now just a bunch of transaction data used as a reference for pricing used commodities and generating revenue.
Yes, I agree that eBay auctions are a better way to trade coins than print ads in printed numismatic publications, even though the buyer has to filter through tens of thousands of auctions instead of mere hundreds of printed offerings. However, eBay has been lax in enforcing full disclosure of problems in their items offered, so many knowledgeable sellers have found it profitable to claim ignorance even though they know better. What's the difference between a used car salesman and an eBay coin seller? Most eBay coin sellers say nothing, act like an idiot, and profits by someone even more idiotic bidding on his coin.
eBay has grown huge by dealers from whom I would not buy a used car. Yes, there are still a few of us selling coins on eBay which we have driven, knowing their problems, but it takes longer for the average eBay buyer to find keeper fish in the huge bay full of phish and other scams.
Thanks to eBay, I look forward to coin show bourses and auctions with in-hand inspection now more than ever.
If you think there is a lot of fraud in the coin section you should check out eBay Motors. I collect vintage motorcycles and eBay is the only place you can find some hard to get parts. Somebody will list a brand new $15k Harley with private auction & private bidders, payment by wire with a BIN of $6k free shipping and some wannabe biker will click on it and send his money.
They also run the scams where the buyer overpays the seller with a bogus money order asks for the change back.
And the pre-approved bidder list auctions.....
Not many coin collectors will fall for things like that.
i think there's probably a lot of this going on we don't hear about. i 'feel', that once one of those class-action ambulance chasers gets the idea to take on ebay, with $$$$ in the eyes, we'll see another side to ebay, with the negative press, which they'll try to suppress. that'll cost ebay, then they'll tighten up. until it costs them, no tighten. how would they tighten? ah, that's going to be difficult for both shamers and the honest little guy, leaving us with the big players who turn it into a storefront, no real auction.
I have conducted over 2500 transactions on eBay. Most everything I've purchased are collectibles. Almost every transaction has been successful; however, the couple of exceptions sting.
Lessons Learned: Pass on second chance offers; never purchase an item outside of eBay.
Last October I made this mistake: A seller 'Speedcontroll2005' had up for bid a PCGS 2000-W $10 Library of Congress coin. I wasn't the high bid. However, I received a second offer notice. The deal seemed great and I allowed my excitement to cloud my judgement. I contacted the seller that I was interested, but the second offer expired on eBay before he contacted me. He agreed to sell me the coin and I made payment via Pay Pal. Much to my ultimate disappointment he sold the coin twice. Pay Pal froze his account, though his balance was down to only a couple hundred dollars. The long and short of it, is Pay Pal refunded only the amount remaining in his account. He had listed only a P.O. Box and cell phone number, using an alias Brad Bradley in Columbus Ohio. I was out the remainder.
Lesson learned: Sellers can overgrade their items significantly
In 1999 I purchased another collectible bidding over $1000 for an item, and purchased another item from the seller as well. The item was significantly overgraded. I tried to get the seller to accept a return which he refused. When I left negative feedback for the seller, he retaliated leaving me the same on both items. He never did another transaction on eBay again. The only thing I can suggest is using Pay Pal's insurance option for high priced items.
Lessons earned: Buyers can be scammers too!, and use USPS tracking for deliveries, retaining receipts
I sent a small collection of 1930's baseball cards to a seller without insurance or before learning about tracking numbers, using regular first class mail. They were sent to a P.O. Box. The buyer claimed with me and Pay Pal that he had never received the item, again leaving me negative feedback. To my suprise Pay Pal reversed the transaction, refunding his purchase when I was unable to demonstrate proof of delivery. Whether or not this guy was a scammer, or truly never received the cards I was out the money and the cards--pretty disappointing.
While there have been a couple of other transactions in which people left retaliatory feedback, those are the only other transactions I've had difficulty with out of some 2500+ transactions that went smoothly.
As both a buyer and as a seller, while I'm more cautious now, I've found that the bid/offer prices afforded on eBay are far superior to what I'm able to generally obtain selling or buying coins direct with dealers, or at coin shows. In fact, I've had dealers bidding coins up on item's I've sold on eBay whereas I suspect that if I walked in their store there's no way I'd get the same bid. eBay introduces something vital into markets: competition!
While there are the eBay and Pay Pal fees, the other aspect I value is the efficiency of the process. I don't have to pay auction house premiums; and I no longer have to sit with something I dont care about for years--Generally no matter what grade of coin, there's a buyer out there willing to pay a reasonable price, so I'm neither stuck holding something endlessly or selling for cents on the dollar.
On the whole, my experience has been overwelmingly positive.
Happy Collecting!