Coin doctors will always proliferate in this business

ksteelheader · October 27, 2006 11:25PM

because the big shots like to write about them, but never reveal names. Kinda hypocritical, if you ask me.

Coxe · October 27, 2006 11:29PM

...because there is always a fad where huge premiums will be paid for extreme cases of one thing or another. Now with good TPGs and the slabbing game, I would expect a lot more slab doctors that the coin doctors who rewor dates and mint marks. But the dippers, toners, laserers, ... aren't going anywhere except to the next big thing.

ksteelheader · October 27, 2006 11:37PM

This thread is NOT about the TPG's!!

It IS about the people that post threads here about "watching out" for coin doctors when they know who they are and are unwilling to "out" them.

MrEureka · October 27, 2006 11:40PM

Revealing names would accomplish nothing. The TPGs know who they are even that accomplishes very little.

However, doctors will one day be shut down by hi-tech grading processes. Yes, I know that "computer grading" will be difficult to implement, but don't make the mistake of thinking that it has to mimic human grading, or that it has to be implemented in its final, perfect version. A new approach could be much simpler, or more complex, or a hybrid of technological measurements and human opinions. And it does not have to be used on all coins from day one. For, example, how difficult could it be for a computer to grade American Gold Eagles? There's your start.

clw54 · October 27, 2006 11:43PM

Coin doctors will be around as along as people will pay vastly different amounts for minor differences in coins of the same date and mintmark.

ksteelheader · October 27, 2006 11:46PM

<< Coin doctors will be around as along as people will pay vastly different amounts for minor differences in coins of the same date and mintmark. >>

And, as long as knowing people won't "name names".

MrEureka · October 27, 2006 11:56PM

And, as long as knowing people won't "name names"

If I told you that Laura is a doctor, and word spread, it could make a difference. You could stop buying from her.

But Laura is not a doctor, and the biggest doctors (with very few exceptions) and not retailers. You will never have a chance to hurt their business. Furthermore, most retailers already buy from known doctors, happily. Auction companies happily sell doctored coins without a second thought. Grading services happily take the submissions from the doctors. And there are no laws against dipping or whizzing a coin.

So what do you think you can do with the names if I name them? Convince me that telling you who the doctors are will make a meaningful difference and maybe I'll risk the lawsuits.

ksteelheader · October 28, 2006 12:16AM

<< So what do you think you can do with the names if I name them? Convince me that telling you who the doctors are will make a meaningful difference and maybe I'll risk the lawsuits. >>

Well then, why the continued threads by the "big dealers" about
the coin doctors??

Sounds like a joke to be making such threads.

BAJJERFAN · October 28, 2006 12:27AM

Most here have a less than favorable opinion about many of the full page Coin World advertisers and they have been outed here [one old thread with the name revealed which was recently revived] YET they go on about their biz unfazed by the negative press they get here. Your best bet is to educate yourself and make sure that you like what you buy.

RYK · October 28, 2006 12:27AM

<< 

<< So what do you think you can do with the names if I name them? Convince me that telling you who the doctors are will make a meaningful difference and maybe I'll risk the lawsuits. >>

Well then, why the continued threads by the "big dealers" about
the coin doctors??

Sounds like a joke to be making such threads.

>>

I see Andy's point, and I also agree with Ken's. I recognize that knowing the names of the major coin docs will mean nothing to me AND that the threads warning me about coin docs are pointless. I guess the only thing to come out of this is that some of us are more aware that coins are "messed with" and have learned to recognize and avoid some forms of doctoring.

MrEureka · October 28, 2006 12:30AM

Well then, why the continued threads by the "big dealers" about
the coin doctors??

I can't speak for Mark and Laura, but from my perspective, anything that brings the issue into the collector's focus is helpful. I have two motives. First, if collectors are on guard for doctored coins, they'll buy less of them, which will lead to less doctoring, which will help protect coins for the next generation of collectors. Second, a market that appreciates originality serves my commercial interests.

BAJJERFAN · October 28, 2006 12:44AM

Well then, why the continued threads by the "big dealers" about
the coin doctors??

.......

Maybe a subtle reminder for buyers to beware???

TwoSides2aCoin · October 28, 2006 12:48AM

thanks Ken.... Great post and true.
Thanks Andy, excellent view from your position, too.

I just know that if people didn't "OOOOOH and AHHHHHH" over colored coins, this would be a moot issue. And if people didn't complain to dealers about the crud, coins would never be dipped.

If a farmer can increase his yield with chemicals and be successful, why should there be a different standard for coin dealers ?

I am against chemicals, per se, but wanted to put this in perspective.

IGWT · October 28, 2006 12:50AM

-- "You will never have a chance to hurt their business. Furthermore, most retailers already buy from known doctors, happily. Auction companies happily sell doctored coins without a second thought. Grading services happily take the submissions from the doctors. And there are no laws against dipping or whizzing a coin." --

If all that's true, then calling someone a "doctor" can hardly be defamatory; and, even if it were, there wouldn't be any damages. I might be more concerned about the self-help provisions in the unwritten Uniform Code of Coin Dealers than about a defamation lawsuit.

RYK · October 28, 2006 12:50AM

<< thanks Ken.... Great post and true.
Thanks Andy, excellent view from your position, too.

I just know that if people didn't "OOOOOH and AHHHHHH" over colored coins, this would be a moot issue. And if people didn't complain to dealers about the crud, coins would never be dipped.

If a farmer can increase his yield with chemicals and be successful, why should there be a different standard for coin dealers ?

I am against chemicals, per se, but wanted to put this in perspective. >>

Doctoring goes way beyond ooohs and ahhhs [sic?] over colorful coins.

As for the farmer analogy, the use of chemicals and hormones has created a huge industry: the organic and natural food business. I want my coins to be "organic".

ABC123 · October 28, 2006 12:53AM

Too Much to Dream----Proco Harum

coinguy1 · October 28, 2006 12:54AM

I believe that awareness and understanding of these issues is a good thing and I will keep working at it, both privately and publicly.

roadrunner · October 28, 2006 1:07AM

A relatively small % of what trades in the market on a weekly basis are doctored coins (I'm not talking NCS here) but lasering, AT, puttying, frosting, etc. Now if major dealers or auctions refused to buy or take consignments any coins from known doctors, who would the doctors sell their $1000 to $50,000 coins to? Joe the B&M dealer down the street? I think not. Joe would probably only want to pay less than the doctor's cost. Not buying is a start. Just say
no. Sure, the doctors could start giving coins to stooges to play with, but the word will get out. In the end, there would be an impact on the doc's business. Alternative work for doctor's could be ferreting out the work of others. Who better to advise you of avoiding traps than the doc himself.

roadrunner

clw54 · October 28, 2006 1:16AM

<< I believe that awareness and understanding of these issues is a good thing and I will keep working at it, both privately and publicly. >>

You're the only one who seems to be doing anything about it.

RedTiger · October 28, 2006 1:16AM

I have written several times that I believe an outing campaign would accomplish little good and hurt a lot of innocents. The corruption runs too deep, and the hobby is dominated by a few big players where politics more than ethics rules the roost. Like the historical McCarthy naming of Communist names campaign, some innocent lives would be ruined, a lot would be unfairly tarred, a few small timers would be forced out. The big fish will continue to laugh all the way to the bank, though do so with more a mob-boss mentality of take no prisoners and destroy those who dare to try and hurt them.

I do agree that coin doctors will always be with us in one form or another. They always have been, as long as there has been a hobby. What they do differs from generation to generation. The belief that high tech grading will save us, is foolish to me. The doctors usually adopt and use each piece of tech and each book diagnosing the latest well before the average dealer, and often ahead of the grading services. The docs have a huge investment in their business and keeping up, the other parties are only slightly interested and often only move if there is a scandal or some of their coins are called in.

Threads posturing against docs are feel good threads. Threads about questionable coins sometimes bring out many complicit dealers out to say the coins are ok. Those that dare question any of the coins are told to take a hike by those collectors that have a huge investment in them. The angry reaction is funny, but sad. Articially toned coins, dipped coins, lasered coins continue to flood into top tier holders. The grading services are on the losing end of some of these battles, and for some they are more interested in keeping the submissions flowing than anything else.

Honestly, does anyone believe the coin docs with all their money and muscle will sit quietly while some snitch starts pointing fingers? Again, the likely result is that the snitch may never be able to do business again, while the doc will be in business with another firm in a month. People have to understand that in the business, a snitch is lower than the doc. The doc brings in money, the snitch is just a snitch. The coin business is a very much an old boys and girls club. Every pro level doc has powerful allies, and can call in favors. Anyone can point a finger. It is easy enough to frame people and ruin their reps.

ldhair · October 28, 2006 1:24AM

Knowledge and awareness of possible problems is important in whatever you are buying.
Without it you have a great chance of loosing you're backside.

New doctors will come and go, as they always have.
Knowing who they are is not a fix for the problem.
Giving names just seems like a great way to spend money on lawyers.

pharmer · October 28, 2006 1:26AM

Regarding the supposed futility of naming names, I would imagine that one coin doc outed here is not doing the business he once was. This would support Ken's contention IMO.

clw54 · October 28, 2006 1:42AM

<< Regarding the supposed futility of naming names, I would imagine that one coin doc outed here is not doing the business he once was. This would support Ken's contention IMO. >>

He was only outed because he was selling and the doctoring was more like a hobby than anything else.

BAJJERFAN · October 28, 2006 1:45AM

<< As for the farmer analogy, the use of chemicals and hormones has created a huge industry: the organic and natural food business. I want my coins to be "organic". >>

It hasn't hurt the medical business either.

pharmer · October 28, 2006 1:51AM

<< 

<< Regarding the supposed futility of naming names, I would imagine that one coin doc outed here is not doing the business he once was. This would support Ken's contention IMO. >>

He was only outed because he was selling and the doctoring was more like a hobby than anything else. >>

Yes, but I was addressing the net effect, which met the goal we all say we are seeking. Results matter.

ksteelheader · October 28, 2006 2:07AM

<< 

<< thanks Ken.... Great post and true.
Thanks Andy, excellent view from your position, too.

I just know that if people didn't "OOOOOH and AHHHHHH" over colored coins, this would be a moot issue. And if people didn't complain to dealers about the crud, coins would never be dipped.

If a farmer can increase his yield with chemicals and be successful, why should there be a different standard for coin dealers ?

I am against chemicals, per se, but wanted to put this in perspective. >>

Doctoring goes way beyond ooohs and ahhhs [sic?] over colorful coins.

As for the farmer analogy, the use of chemicals and hormones has created a huge industry: the organic and natural food business. I want my coins to be "organic". >>

the use of chemicals and hormones has created a huge industry

Yeah, just look at Barfy Bonds!!!

RedTiger · October 28, 2006 3:01AM

<< Regarding the supposed futility of naming names, I would imagine that one coin doc outed here is not doing the business he once was. This would support Ken's contention IMO. >>

An outing campaign will bag a few of these small player amateurs that have little money, and no allies. I agree with that.

However, once the outing starts in earnest, the likely response by the muscle is that a lot of innocents will also be tarred and feathered and have no means to defend themselves. All it will take is a small circle of powerful people inside the hobby to decide to destroy one of the honest people's reputations and it will happen. A few coins planted, a few articles written, a few well-placed rumors spread and the deed will be done and the evidence will be so convincing though all made up--is that what the outers want? That is the most likely result. Think about it.

Big players will millions of dollars in the bank, and powerful allies in the hobby, that can call in a lot of favors, that generate huge profits for their complicit dealers, and submit thousands of coins every year to the services, will not be put out of business by a few people looking to play snitch, or a few high minded people who wish for a different hobby. It just isn't reality. I can not see it happening in any real world scenario. When there is big money at stake people play hard ball, they do not play nice, and there is some serious money at stake if a real outing campaign takes place. Again, the snitches will be burnt at the stake, many innocents will get their reputations unfairly damaged, a few amateurs who are guilty will be ruined. The big money boys and girls will stay in business, though they too would be hurt, as would almost every dealer in the hobby, and almost all coin market sectors. It is a lose-lose scenario.

coinguy1 · October 28, 2006 3:05AM

<< 

<< Regarding the supposed futility of naming names, I would imagine that one coin doc outed here is not doing the business he once was. This would support Ken's contention IMO. >>

An outing campaign will bag a few of these small player amateurs that have little money, and no allies. I agree with that.

However, once the outing starts in earnest, the likely response by the muscle is that a lot of innocents will also be tarred and feathered and have no means to defend themselves. All it will take is a small circle of powerful people inside the hobby to decide to destroy one of the honest people's reputations and it will happen. A few coins planted, a few articles written, a few well-placed rumors spread and the deed will be done and the evidence will be so convincing though all made up--is that what the outers want? That is the most likely result. Think about it.

Big players will millions of dollars in the bank, and powerful allies in the hobby, that can call in a lot of favors, that generate huge profits for their complicit dealers, and submit thousands of coins every year to the services, will not be put out of business by a few people looking to play snitch, or a few high minded people who wish for a different hobby. It just isn't reality. I can not see it happening in any real world scenario. When there is big money at stake people play hard ball, they do not play nice, and there is some serious money at stake if a real outing campaign takes place. Again, the snitches will be burnt at the stake, many innocents will get their reputations unfairly damaged, a few amateurs who are guilty will be ruined. The big money boys and girls will stay in business, though they too would be hurt, as would almost every dealer in the hobby, and almost all coin market sectors. It is a lose-lose scenario. >>

Sadly, I agree with that.

Myqqy · October 28, 2006 3:07AM

I believe that awareness and understanding of these issues is a good thing and I will keep working at it, both privately and publicly.

I'm afraid that is not good enough for monday morning quarterbacks who think they are smarter than they really are....

ksteelheader · October 28, 2006 3:15AM

<< I believe that awareness and understanding of these issues is a good thing and I will keep working at it, both privately and publicly.

I'm afraid that is not good enough for monday morning quarterbacks who think they are smarter than they really are.... >>

What would a tame rat know about quarter backing??

au58 · October 28, 2006 3:37AM

There are doctors in the precious gem business who oil, fill, and color stones. There are doctors in the fine art business, the stamp business, the used car business, and the antique business. If there is a product or a collectible and it can be improved upon, there is a doctor to do it. If a doctor in the coin business is named, there is an apprentice ready to take his place.

MrEureka · October 28, 2006 3:48AM

-- "You will never have a chance to hurt their business. Furthermore, most retailers already buy from known doctors, happily. Auction companies happily sell doctored coins without a second thought. Grading services happily take the submissions from the doctors. And there are no laws against dipping or whizzing a coin." --

If all that's true, then calling someone a "doctor" can hardly be defamatory; and, even if it were, there wouldn't be any damages.

It's one thing to believe that, quite another to prove it in court.

IrishMike · October 28, 2006 3:54AM

If someone is good at doctoring coins and by that I mean not easily detectible why would they bother putting up a retail shingle and risk exposure. Naming them would require proof and even named they would continue to find markets. Naming them isn't the pancea some of you think it would be and could open up folks to law suits. Haven't we seen enough of collectors getting dragged into them.

It's good to talk about them to alert collectors that they exist and what to look for. Momma can't be with you every time you make a decision to buy something. Learn and survive on your own.

Edited to add: PS find something else to go after dealers you don't like.

Bear · October 28, 2006 4:01AM

I dont believe that bears proliferate in public?

ksteelheader · October 28, 2006 4:14AM

<< If someone is good at doctoring coins and by that I mean not easily detectible why would they bother putting up a retail shingle and risk exposure. Naming them would require proof and even named they would continue to find markets. Naming them isn't the pancea some of you think it would be and could open up folks to law suits. Haven't we seen enough of collectors getting dragged into them.

It's good to talk about them to alert collectors that they exist and what to look for. Momma can't be with you every time you make a decision to buy something. Learn and survive on your own.

Edited to add: PS find something else to go after dealers you don't like. >>

Mike, the highlighted area of your response doesn't make any sense to me. Did you forget a word or smoething??

lkenefic · October 28, 2006 5:17AM

<< 

<< Regarding the supposed futility of naming names, I would imagine that one coin doc outed here is not doing the business he once was. This would support Ken's contention IMO. >>

An outing campaign will bag a few of these small player amateurs that have little money, and no allies. I agree with that.

However, once the outing starts in earnest, the likely response by the muscle is that a lot of innocents will also be tarred and feathered and have no means to defend themselves. All it will take is a small circle of powerful people inside the hobby to decide to destroy one of the honest people's reputations and it will happen. A few coins planted, a few articles written, a few well-placed rumors spread and the deed will be done and the evidence will be so convincing though all made up--is that what the outers want? That is the most likely result. Think about it.

Big players will millions of dollars in the bank, and powerful allies in the hobby, that can call in a lot of favors, that generate huge profits for their complicit dealers, and submit thousands of coins every year to the services, will not be put out of business by a few people looking to play snitch, or a few high minded people who wish for a different hobby. It just isn't reality. I can not see it happening in any real world scenario. When there is big money at stake people play hard ball, they do not play nice, and there is some serious money at stake if a real outing campaign takes place. Again, the snitches will be burnt at the stake, many innocents will get their reputations unfairly damaged, a few amateurs who are guilty will be ruined. The big money boys and girls will stay in business, though they too would be hurt, as would almost every dealer in the hobby, and almost all coin market sectors. It is a lose-lose scenario. >>

Yeah...Reality SUCKS!

09sVDB · October 28, 2006 6:58AM

Doctors will be around as long as people fail to educate themselves.

JapanJohn · October 28, 2006 7:26AM

I don't know much about the business end of the coin world but I find it very unthinkable that ANY dealer of coins hasn't cleaned or dipped (acetone, MS70, etc.) I worked in the Materials Science game for a while and I can think of some better solvents. Is this doctoring? I don't think so. I think what most people refer to as doctoring is toning or putty or along those lines.

I have to think that if coins are your profession you probably have to have tried some cleaning techniques. When somebody perfects or makes the lasering techniques reachable and affordable, I'll bet you lunch everyone will do it.

As a buyer you really can trust only one person. Yourself. And also if you see a coin you like and it is doctored. So what, if you like it?

John

Coin doctors will always proliferate in this business

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