How Much Is a Counterfeit Worth?

Coxe · October 10, 2006 7:20AM

This was the most obvious one and I wrote to the seller about that too (though I couldn't identify buyers). Went cheap though. Considered it myself for an example of a fake Morgan; perhaps the buyer was thinking the same. Not enough money to fuss to eBay anout it, as if they would be able to discern the issue anyway.

Cladiator · October 10, 2006 7:21AM

I'd love to have a contemporary counterfeit of a bust half dime. Would probably pay good money for one too.

Pentimento · October 10, 2006 7:25AM

Its hard to be angry about these because I would like to have one myself for 10-15 bucks...

CoinResource · October 10, 2006 7:32AM

Secret service may not like it.... though.

WoodenJefferson · October 10, 2006 7:35AM

FYI: I was wondering myself

POSSESSING COUNTERFEIT COINS Reid Goldsborough writes: "There are differing opinions about the the legalities of owning counterfeit coins in the United States as no U.S. statute specifically addresses this issue and no U.S. court has specifically addressed it either. Two areas of U.S. law deal with counterfeit coins. Title 18, Part I, Chapter 25 (Counterfeiting and Forgery) of the U.S. Code, Sections 485, 489, and 492 deal with counterfeits of U.S. and world coins. The Hobby Protection Act of 1973 (Title 15, Chapter 48, Sections 2101 through 2106 of the U.S. Code, plus 1988 amendments) deals with counterfeits of ancient coins. Nothing in the above statutes says that simple possession of counterfeits of collectible coins is illegal. According to Armen R. Vartian, the most visible numismatic legal expert in the U.S., a lawyer, numismatist, Coin World legal columnist, and author of the book A Legal Guide to Buying and Selling Art and Collectibles, "The statutes do not criminalize the mere possession of counterfeit money." Though the courts have addressed peripheral issues, no court in the U.S. has ever ruled on the legality of owning a counterfeit of a collectible coin. For there to be "judicial clarity," a court ruling has to address this issue specifically, according to Vartian. The American Numismatic Association does recommend that you turn in counterfeit coins to it or the U.S. Secret Service. But it recognizes that hundreds if not thousands of auction houses, dealers, and collectors keep counterfeits of collectible coins on hand for educational purposes and for help in counterfeit detection. Robert W. Hoge, former curator at the American Numismatic Association and current curator at the American Numismatic Society, recommends that those who elect to keep counterfeits should clearly identify them on the labels of their holders to help prevent them from someday inadvertently being sold as genuine coins. Some collectors also are attracted to the subject of counterfeits and counterfeiting for its own intrinsic interest. In his ANA video titled "Famous Fakes and Fakers," Ken Bressett, editor of the Red Book and past president of the ANA, points out that some counterfeits can be considered "true numismatic items" that are "enjoyable to study and collect."

www.coinbooks.org

Coxe · October 10, 2006 7:38AM

The 1804 "restrike" cent is indeed a very well understood counterfeit. Three Morgan Top-100 micro o VAMs are regarded by many as likely counterfeits, thought he jury is stillout on that and wouldn't be a matter for the SS.

tradedollarnut · October 10, 2006 7:40AM

Really good old time counterfeit 1804 dollars have brought near $10,000!

BigDaddyz · October 10, 2006 7:53AM

I have about 40 fakes, from 1804 to Ikes. I've sold some to friends as "card covers" when playing poker. That way, if someone steals it, you don't lose much. But they still look cool. If anyone wants to see them,

Counterfeit Dollars

9 meg zip file

JrGMan2004 · October 10, 2006 7:57AM

<< I'd love to have a contemporary counterfeit of a bust half dime. Would probably pay good money for one too. >>

Same here...

WoodenJefferson · October 10, 2006 8:15AM

<< I have about 40 fakes, from 1804 to Ikes. I've sold some to friends as "card covers" when playing poker. That way, if someone steals it, you don't lose much. But they still look cool. If anyone wants to see them,

BigDaddyz...did you let the "Jeanie" out of the bottle for the scammers? These are like Pandora's Box...what an assortment.

19Lyds · October 10, 2006 8:22AM

What makes you think it is a counterfeit?

Coxe · October 10, 2006 8:25AM

<< What makes you think it is a counterfeit? >>

Look at the supersize photos. The mint mark is the lamest part of it. The date doesn't work, the denticles, .....

Aegis3 · October 10, 2006 8:29AM

Depends on the counterfeit. The mass-produced Chinese junk that is often seen on ebay (and which this Morgan looks like) has only nominal value at best. I wouldn't want one. Contemporary counterfeits (and even some numismatic ones) can have wide ranges of values, and often can be worth more than a genuine coin in the same grade. Consider, for example, the 1848 small date large cent counterfeit.

RichieURich · October 10, 2006 8:53AM

That 1882-o dollar in the ebay sale was REALLY a micro o!

The micro o dollars of 1896, 1900 and 1902 have sold recently on ebay for big bucks. A Fine 1902-micro o sold for $875! The 1848 small date large cent sells in the thousands of dollars. Many of the contemporary counterfeit Capped Bust halves sell for more than their genuine counterparts. It all depends on how well it was made and how many potential buyers are out there.

19Lyds · October 10, 2006 8:56AM

Thanks Coxe! That Mintmark does not look like the typical "O" Mintmark. Too round and even.

Coxe · October 10, 2006 9:00AM

<< That 1882-o dollar in the ebay sale was REALLY a micro o!

The micro o dollars of 1896, 1900 and 1902 have sold recently on ebay for big bucks. A Fine 1902-micro o sold for $875! The 1848 small date large cent sells in the thousands of dollars. Many of the contemporary counterfeit Capped Bust halves sell for more than their genuine counterparts. It all depends on how well it was made and how many potential buyers are out there. >>

Naturally, you are kidding. The micro o mint mark reverse used on those alleged counterfeits was modelled on a real mico o reverse from an early date (1880-O I think, but forget off-hand). The o on that "1882-o" does not resemble an o punch like that. It was drawn into the die.

RichieURich · October 10, 2006 9:07AM

What I meant was that the 1882-o on ebay had a very small o comparable to the micro o. I should hae been more specific, sorry about that.

nickel · October 10, 2006 10:00AM

just a thought -- a counterfeit (coin or paper) is made to defraud the government
in place of real money .wouldn't the secret service be more interested in say
counterfeit $20 bills? I mean , how can you spend a counterfeit half dime, if many
retail clerks look at you funny when you offer kennedy halves or $2 bills as payment.
heaven forbid if you have a $100 bill at the grocery for a $82.40 tab! the brown
pens appear , wide eyes frantically search for supervisor on duty, super inspects bill
and nods in approval . (as if he knows better than bank tellers , of which probably
most couldn't tell the difference ) ps. the most counterfeited bill in the us was/is the $20
cause it doesn't draw attention . in other parts of the world , the us $100 probably holds
that distinction .

CaptHenway · October 10, 2006 10:19AM

<< What makes you think it is a counterfeit? >>

Reverse style of 1921. One of the "better" Chinese counterfeiters apparently went to the trouble to make a one or more pairs of undated and unmintmarked obverse and reverse hubs that he uses to sink dies that are then dated or mintmarked. Fortunately for us, he used a 1921 Morgan for one of the sets of hubs.
TD

CaptHenway · October 10, 2006 10:21AM

It is probably no coincidence that most of the other things he is selling are modern Chinese copies of antiquities and coins.

Pentimento · October 10, 2006 10:22AM

<< clerks look at you funny when you offer kennedy halves or $2 bills as payment.
heaven forbid if you have a $100 bill at the grocery for a $82.40 tab! the brown
pens appear >>

Bigdaddyz-- thanks for the zip file. Very cool. question-- do you focus on common date fakes, or is that just whats shown in the picture pack? Those 1925 Peace dollars are amazing, its like the date is modelled from a label maker font!

I have had my 2 dollar bills tested with the brown pen twice this week...

BigDaddyz · October 10, 2006 12:02PM

Some of them are pretty good but some are a joke. All of them, you can tell they are fake by tapping them, they don't ring like silver. I think they are just hoping to sell them to noobs who won't know the difference.

I report scammers to ebay almost every day.

Coxe · October 10, 2006 12:09PM

<< 

<< What makes you think it is a counterfeit? >>

Reverse style of 1921. One of the "better" Chinese counterfeiters apparently went to the trouble to make a one or more pairs of undated and unmintmarked obverse and reverse hubs that he uses to sink dies that are then dated or mintmarked. Fortunately for us, he used a 1921 Morgan for one of the sets of hubs.
TD >>

Yep for the reverse, based on a D reverse. The obverse, surprisingly, is off of a I obverse, used in the first 8TF Morgans of 1878. The coin is so wrong that I almost feel like collecting some of these to do some forensics on their operation.

coindeuce · October 10, 2006 12:21PM

Just under a year ago I purchased a counterfeit 1878-CC Trade Dollar from a dealer from Singapore. I knew that the chances of the coin being genuine were slim to none, but I also knew that the price paid was 1/50 th of the value of a genuine in like condition, and this one nearly slipped by a a major TPG. It's all relative.

WoodenJefferson · October 10, 2006 1:02PM

Yep for the reverse, based on a D reverse. The obverse, surprisingly, is off of a I obverse, used in the first 8TF Morgans of 1878. The coin is so wrong that I almost feel like collecting some of these to do some forensics on their operation.

you can call it: CSI (hometown)

tradedollarnut · October 10, 2006 1:15PM

and this one nearly slipped by a a major TPG

I doubt it.

How Much Is a Counterfeit Worth?

Comments

Leave a Comment