20th Anniversary Coins and Ebay Shill Bidding
morebaseball
Posts: 16
I have found it interesting that upon ebay bidding for numerous Anniversary sets, reverse proof gold eagle and other modern coins,
my bids have been run up to the maximum bid amount very quickly and then I am outbid by $500 to $900. A few hours later I have
received 2nd chance buy it now offers(at my bid price) for the same item when my bid was $500 to $900 below the supposed winning bid with several
supposed higher bids than mine. The same bidders who supposedly backed out were the same folks who ran the previous bids up.
Look at the completed items for reverse proofs on ebay. What you find is an auction at $5900 that never happened at that reported price
(I know because I later bought the item for much less) and some supposed by it now or private bidders auctions where people
with a vested self interest in high values can create a false market value by paying an ebay fee. When you look at who the bidders were on many of these
items they have little or zero feedback in the last year and when they do they were guys who bought a bunch of empty coinholders or some lipstick and whose maximum previous
purchase was a fraction of the amount they bid for on these shill bids. Buyer beware.
my bids have been run up to the maximum bid amount very quickly and then I am outbid by $500 to $900. A few hours later I have
received 2nd chance buy it now offers(at my bid price) for the same item when my bid was $500 to $900 below the supposed winning bid with several
supposed higher bids than mine. The same bidders who supposedly backed out were the same folks who ran the previous bids up.
Look at the completed items for reverse proofs on ebay. What you find is an auction at $5900 that never happened at that reported price
(I know because I later bought the item for much less) and some supposed by it now or private bidders auctions where people
with a vested self interest in high values can create a false market value by paying an ebay fee. When you look at who the bidders were on many of these
items they have little or zero feedback in the last year and when they do they were guys who bought a bunch of empty coinholders or some lipstick and whose maximum previous
purchase was a fraction of the amount they bid for on these shill bids. Buyer beware.
0
Comments
Also, there are some scams that are sending 2nd offers. I have had second offers from some of the auctions.
I e-mailed the original sellers; they denied.
Shilling on ebay;;; never
SNMAN
<< <i>I have found it interesting that upon ebay bidding for numerous Anniversary sets, reverse proof gold eagle and other modern coins, my bids have been run up to the maximum bid amount very quickly and then I am outbid by $500 to $900. A few hours later I have received 2nd chance buy it now offers(at my bid price) for the same item when my bid was $500 to $900 below the supposed winning bid with several supposed higher bids than mine. The same bidders who supposedly backed out were the same folks who ran the previous bids up. Look at the completed items for reverse proofs on ebay. What you find is an auction at $5900 that never happened at that reported price (I know because I later bought the item for much less) and some supposed by it now or private bidders auctions where people with a vested self interest in high values can create a false market value by paying an ebay fee. When you look at who the bidders were on many of these items they have little or zero feedback in the last year and when they do they were guys who bought a bunch of empty coinholders or some lipstick and whose maximum previous purchase was a fraction of the amount they bid for on these shill bids. Buyer beware. >>
You're making broad speculation bordering on accusation without foundation. Depending on which auctions you're talking about, I may have been involved in some of them. With people buying 10 sets of these coins it is reasonable to believe they have more than one of the coin which is the most likely basis for a second chance offer.
Also, with so many people interested in the coin, it would be expected that the coin ran up to the approximate market price quickly and then ended in a sniping contest. And yes, new buyers are entering the market for these coins and have zero feedback.
I see nothing unusual in what you describe. If you waited and got a coin cheaper good for you but in my opinion making speculative accusations like this affects mostly YOUR credibility.
--Jerry
You mean there IS still hope that I can pick up a reverse proof next September at below issue price?
Box of 20
Velocity, Not Valuation Defines A Bubble.
less than the winning auction price that was never paid by any these shill bidders, the only credibility that is at stake is whoever is running the price. In the cases I'm referring to
they did not buy the item, their bids were not consumated, feedback was never assigned and they have no history of making similar purchases on ebay for any type of product. In other
words "Now that we can't get you to bid any higher and run up your maximum bid again, you can have the item for the same price you bid yesterday even though it was much less."
<< <i>If the bidders that ran up the bid immediately and continually throughout the auction process all go away after the auction and the item is then offerred for 10% to 20% less than the winning auction price that was never paid by any these shill bidders, the only credibility that is at stake is whoever is running the price. In the cases I'm referring to they did not buy the item, their bids were not consumated, feedback was never assigned and they have no history of making similar purchases on ebay for any type of product. In other words "Now that we can't get you to bid any higher and run up your maximum bid again, you can have the item for the same price you bid yesterday even though it was much less." >>
If I want $4k for my sets. I get 6 bids for over $4k and I make second chance offers to them. What's wrong with that? If you're insinuating that since one sold for $5900 I should expect to get that for all of them I have one comment: Pigs get slaughtered. You have no way of knowing that the deal wasn't done--again, baseless speculation. --Jerry
Or, why wouldn't you list the second one and try for more if you honestly thought that you could get it? Fee avoidance isn't worth $500.
I agree with morebaseball that the sellers were either trying to create a market price that was not real or were trying to hook a live one with shill bidders. The other options, as described, don't make sense.
<< <i>You're making broad speculation bordering on accusation without foundation. Depending on which auctions you're talking about, I may have been involved in some of them. With people buying 10 sets of these coins it is reasonable to believe they have more than one of the coin which is the most likely basis for a second chance offer.
Also, with so many people interested in the coin, it would be expected that the coin ran up to the approximate market price quickly and then ended in a sniping contest. And yes, new buyers are entering the market for these coins and have zero feedback.
I see nothing unusual in what you describe. If you waited and got a coin cheaper good for you but in my opinion making speculative accusations like this affects mostly YOUR credibility.
--Jerry >>
Jerry,
Get Real! He said "shill" one time at the end of his discussion. If one is offering "second chance" offers to under bidders because s/he has mutliples, that sounds like "fee avoidance" to me.
<< <i>If you had a number of bidders run the price up $500 more than another bidder and they all backed out, why would you take a hit of $500 rather than relist?
Or, why wouldn't you list the second one and try for more if you honestly thought that you could get it? Fee avoidance isn't worth $500.
I agree with morebaseball that the sellers were either trying to create a market price that was not real or were trying to hook a live one with shill bidders. The other options, as described, don't make sense.
<< <i>You're making broad speculation bordering on accusation without foundation. Depending on which auctions you're talking about, I may have been involved in some of them. With people buying 10 sets of these coins it is reasonable to believe they have more than one of the coin which is the most likely basis for a second chance offer.
Also, with so many people interested in the coin, it would be expected that the coin ran up to the approximate market price quickly and then ended in a sniping contest. And yes, new buyers are entering the market for these coins and have zero feedback.
I see nothing unusual in what you describe. If you waited and got a coin cheaper good for you but in my opinion making speculative accusations like this affects mostly YOUR credibility.
--Jerry >>
Jerry,
Get Real! He said "shill" one time at the end of his discussion. If one is offering "second chance" offers to under bidders because s/he has mutliples, that sounds like "fee avoidance" to me. >>
ALL good points, also remember some may have to cover CC real soon, so getting monies fast is important
Many sellers have more than one quantity of an item, and are willing to sell another to the second highest bidder, and/or the third. This especially happens with generic type coins or sets. Proof set, Eagles, even these 20th Anniv Gold Sets.
I've done this with other generic coins and hardly had any takers. I even ebay messaged them to inform them it was a valid second chance offer -and no reply.
It's a shame there was so much scamming with second chance offers - that they dont mean much now.
The same buyers wound up buying the same generic coin off another seller for MORE than I offered it to them for........
"Item Number - 28003272XXXX
Item Title - 2006 20TH ANNIVERSARY AMERICAN EAGLE GOLD SET 3-COIN NR
Our records show that you were a bidder or buyer of one or more of this seller's items. We recently removed this seller's active listings and suspended the seller's trading privileges. Due to privacy concerns we cannot share further details about this seller.
If the seller asks you to complete this transaction outside of eBay, we strongly recommend that you do not proceed with the transaction. Transactions for items listed on eBay but then completed off of the eBay platform are not covered by buyer protection programs offered by eBay and can be highly indicative of fraud. For more information on Offers to Buy or Sell Outside of eBay, copy and past the following Help Page link into your browser:
If you have already paid for this item but have not received it, you should take all possible steps to receive reimbursement.
1. Stop payment with your bank if you paid by check.
2. Contact the Security Department of your credit card company to file a chargeback if you paid via credit card.
3. If you paid via Western Union or MoneyGram, contact the company directly (Western Union 800-325-6000 or MoneyGram 800-926-9400).
4. If you paid with PayPal, you may be eligible for up to $1,000 USD coverage at no cost. To file a claim with PayPal, login to your PayPal account and copy and paste the following link into your web browser:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_protections-buyer-outside Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the File a Claim link. PayPal claims must be filed within 45 days of the close of the listing. It may take at least 30 days to complete the investigation and resolve the dispute.
5. If you did not pay with PayPal and would like to file a claim with eBay, please initiate the Item Not Received Process online directly from the Security and Resolution Center at the bottom of the eBay.com page.
6. eBay claims must be filed within 60 days of the end of the listing.
Our goal is to ensure that your eBay experience is safe so that you can buy confidently. It is rare that something goes wrong with a transaction on eBay. However, in the event it does, we would like to provide as much assistance as possible to help resolve the issue.
Please do not respond to this email, as your reply will not be received. "
Pretty bad.
<< <i>If you had a number of bidders run the price up $500 more than another bidder and they all backed out, why would you take a hit of $500 rather than relist? Or, why wouldn't you list the second one and try for more if you honestly thought that you could get it? Fee avoidance isn't worth $500. I agree with morebaseball that the sellers were either trying to create a market price that was not real or were trying to hook a live one with shill bidders. The other options, as described, don't make sense.
<< <i>You're making broad speculation bordering on accusation without foundation. Depending on which auctions you're talking about, I may have been involved in some of them. With people buying 10 sets of these coins it is reasonable to believe they have more than one of the coin which is the most likely basis for a second chance offer. Also, with so many people interested in the coin, it would be expected that the coin ran up to the approximate market price quickly and then ended in a sniping contest. And yes, new buyers are entering the market for these coins and have zero feedback. I see nothing unusual in what you describe. If you waited and got a coin cheaper good for you but in my opinion making speculative accusations like this affects mostly YOUR credibility. --Jerry >>
Jerry, Get Real! He said "shill" one time at the end of his discussion. If one is offering "second chance" offers to under bidders because s/he has mutliples, that sounds like "fee avoidance" to me. >>
You don't understand second chance offers. The seller still pays fees.....you think ebay would set up something without fees? Keep trying, you're digging yourself in deeper. --Jerry
Search (reverse proof NGC) completed items There are a total of 2 completed sales of PCGS reverse proofs $ 5595 and $5900. Search (reverse proof PCGS) The PCGS graded coins have both been sold by dealers of great reputation. There are buy it now PCGS Coins at $5295 that have not yet been sold. My point is that (1) I know of no other PR70 eagles where NGC outsells PCGS at near the same price and (2) all of the references to big demand is based on a total of a handful of sales in the last 3 days, two of which I was the buyer for my longterm personal sets. So far the demand for the reverse proof is lagging the demand for the sets.
To see if your offer is from the seller, go into your MyEbay. If you cannot see the offer in there, it is not from the seller.
If I were a seller I would not make a second offer chance to someone multiple hundred below market price.
1. Every time I have bid $2000 or more, I ALWAYS receive a second chance offer, supposedly from the seller. EVERY time, it has been a bogus E-mail.
2. I have sold a couple of gold sets on E-bay myself. The first 3, YES, 3 buyers have NEVER paid. Two were obvious scams. One was obviously a foreign buyer and couldn't spell or use ANY punctuation marks at all. The next one offered more BS stories stating he looked up my info because he worked with the FBI, etc. Almost every word was a lie. I sold those sets for $3400, but looks like they will be resold due to non-paying bidders. YES, I have filed with E-bay, but, it appears I will have to wait to get a refund if at all for fees? SELLERS beware too! Ray
You could simplify instead of all the typing by typing two words:
Market Manipulation
Jerry, There is nothing wrong with the following:
If I want $4k for my sets. I get 6 bids for over $4k and I make second chance offers to them. What's wrong with that? If you're insinuating that since one sold for $5900 I should expect to get that for all of them I have one comment: Pigs get slaughtered. You have no way of knowing that the deal wasn't done--again, baseless speculation. --Jerry
.... unless one is a pig~... I think there is a solid footing with the original post about SECOND CHANCE offers. If you want four grand for your set, get four grand. If you put a reserve at four grand and it runs up to six, great ! Run another auction. Second chance offers on a SIMILAR deal is a totally different deal, unless the first deal fell through, in which case................ a high ticket item ought not be solicited to one who lost, although a notification would be nice that you are listing another.
Just my opinion.
Joe
edit to add:
although a notification would be nice that you are listing another
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The phony 2nd chance offers hurt all especially the small sellers. Iwill not respond to any 2nd chance offer.
Does EBAY care?
In the last 90 days I received three 2nd chance offers.
One was fake but after following up the other two second chance offers were REAL and the sellers were board members. I have both coins and I'm glad I followed up with the sellers.