<< <i>There were thousands of white coins and mini crescent coins that did not earn the BC designation.BTW,there were about 300-350 extremely nice toners out of 18,000 coins.Not a very high percentage.Less than than 2%were actually coins in that category.JMHO >>
So there's 2,000 in a bag and not 1,000? >>
There are 1000 in a bag. And, while Lloyd's math might be rusty, he does know his toners.
I won't try to convince anyone of anything.......I will simply state that in my somewhat informed but certainly not expert opinion...........the Battle Creek coins are 100% legit! Notice I say 100% not 95% etc. The funny thing is that I keep reading peoples quotes on these boards that state they are staying away from purchasing these coins becuase of the controversy6 surrounding them and their authenticity (which is a good idea for them), but the only place I see any questions about there being any doubt as to the originality of the collection is here on the PCGS forum.
I have said it before and I will say it again.....the PCGS forum does not represent the known collecting universe.....it is a small microchasm of all the collectors out there and to think thoughts an opinions presented or expressed on these forums has any real barring on the collecting market is well........foolish in my opinion.
If folks don't want to buy BC coins......that is really good news for toning weenies everywhere becuase less demand means better prices so I guess collectors of BC coins should really be thanking those of you who and condeming the coins as AT.
<< <i>There were thousands of white coins and mini crescent coins that did not earn the BC designation.BTW,there were about 300-350 extremely nice toners out of 18,000 coins.Not a very high percentage.Less than than 2%were actually coins in that category.JMHO >>
So there's 2,000 in a bag and not 1,000? >>
There are 1000 in a bag. And, while Lloyd's math might be rusty, he does know his toners. >>
Hey, I'm just thrilled to death that someone actually noticed one of my posts here!
Cheryl........."She was not quite what you would call refined. She was not quite what you would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot." - Mark Twain
<< <i>someone made a very good point. 1400 toned coins out of 9,000 (9 bags) seems like an unusually high percentage of coins resting against the fabric. >>
OK you've got a coin geek here... now and then with some spare time on his hands over the last year.
1400 was the number of coins slabbed by NGC with the Battle Creek designation. That number can be broken down. There were 4 main auctions of BC coins, a fifth BC designated auction (e.g. it had some P.R. fluff in the catalogue about BC coins) with mainly multicoin lots (lets say averaging 3 to 4 coins a lot) and recently another nonBC designated auction with BC multicoin lots (lets say averaging 4 to 5 coins a lot). Realistically 99.9% of the decent toned BCs were in the first 4 auctions. In total in the 4 auctions there were 301 individual coin lots, e.g. the creme de la creme of the hoard. There were also 284 paired lots, of nice but generally not spectacular toners, indeed some of the coins in these paired lots were dogs, in my opinion. That's another 568 coins. Combining those 2 numbers you get 869 coins, not 1400.
It is my understanding, although I may be wrong, that NGC had some sort of financial incentive to include a BC name and Star designation on the coins. Hence the extra 531 coins got the name and star. If you actually see these coins they have AT BEST microcrescents of toning. This is the part of the deal where NGC REALLY whored itself out. Many of these coins are graded "uncirculated", e.g. they were in the 60-62 range. IMO none of these coins should have gotten the star designation. These were the coins sold in the 5th and 6th auctions.
Anyhow, getting back to the 869 coins, as I mentioned only 301 were individual coin lots. Of these, 70 coins with obverse toning and 28 coins with reverse toning cracked the $1,000 barrier (that INCLUDES the juice) when they went up for auction. In other words out of 9000 coins roughly 100 were considered the real creme de la creme of the BC hoard, or, if you will, roughly 1% of the coins.
The numbers are as follows for the first 4 auctions:
BC INDIVIDUAL LOTS
YEAR 1885 1886 1887 1904-O
GRADE 1-MS67
MS66 5 13 9 0
MS65 9 27 41 1
MS64 14 44 53 0
MS63 6 40 33 5
TOTAL 34 124 137 6 GRAND TOTAL 301
BC PAIRED LOTS
YEAR 1885 1886 1887 1904-O
GRADE
MS66 5 15 6 0
MS65 21 50 45 0
MS64 33 88 88 2
MS63 30 80 104 1
TOTAL 89 233 243 3 PAIRED GRAND TOTAL 568
TOTAL ALL BC COINS SOLD AT THE 4 AUCTIONS
ALL BC LOTS
YEAR 1885 1886 1887 1904-O
GRADE 1-MS67
MS66 10 28 15 0
MS65 30 77 86 1
MS64 47 132 141 2
MS63 36 120 137 6
TOTAL 123 357 380 9 GRAND TOTAL 869
EDITED TO ADD: Hmmm, it appears the formatting got screwed up when I copied and pasted the tables in here. Sorry about that.
An opinion is only worth the knowledge and experience behind it...
>>
...and one must factor in the bias (read financial interest) of the person speaking...Mike >>
Mike: I openly stated on this forum that I did indeed have a vested interest (bias if you will) and have never tried to hide that fact. However, that does not diminish the extent of my knowledge or experience (gained from THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL, one of whose specialities includes exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage). Moreover, I would not have spent TWO-HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS plus on AT coins in the first place (afterall I was not representing a buyer(s) but rather laying MY money on the line confident in the knowledge that I do know the difference).
<< <i>someone made a very good point. 1400 toned coins out of 9,000 (9 bags) seems like an unusually high percentage of coins resting against the fabric. >>
There were NOT 1400 toned coins in the Battle Creek hoard!!! There were hundreds of stone WHITE coins and/or those with MICRO-THIN crescents that would barely qualify as toned. Had you viewed this group in its ENTIRETY as I did (I examined and made an offer on the intact group prior to the auction sales) you'd know that. That's what I dislike most about this message board -- so many with so little knowledge (firsthand or otherwise) spouting off...
One question for the forum scientists...If it takes decades in a canvas bag for the coins to tone as is the current mindset, would not all the sulfur or other toning producing chemicals that are in the canvas dissappated long before.? How long do you think that it takes this sulfur to leave the canvas when exposed to air?
<< <i>One question for the forum scientists...If it takes decades in a canvas bag for the coins to tone as is the current mindset, would not all the sulfur or other toning producing chemicals that are in the canvas dissappated long before.? How long do you think that it takes this sulfur to leave the canvas when exposed to air? >>
It is my understanding that once a chemical reaction starts on a coin's surface, it often continues, often with differing results.
I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Hmmm...just a thought. If these Battle Creek dollars are AT why are there so many reverse toners? Afterall, any coin doctor worth his salt knows that the obverse is the money side...
The arguments are certainly persuasive, but what clinched this issue in my mind was the ALL CAP TITLE and the very conclusive "....PERIOD" with three EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!
I personally believe that many of the images that I've seen of the BC Morgans are worked over a bit too much in image editors to make them "look like they look in hand". I don't think that many of the pics are realistic.
I would be willing to take pics of a vibrantly toned BC Morgan. You pay to send it to me, I'll pay for the return postage. I strive for accuracy in all of my pictures. If our pics look alike, I'll give you the seal of approval™. We could even send the original RAW images to somebody else to post-process also to get a second opinion.
<< <i>I personally believe that many of the images that I've seen of the BC Morgans are worked over a bit too much in image editors to make them "look like they look in hand". I don't think that many of the pics are realistic.
I would be willing to take pics of a vibrantly toned BC Morgan. You pay to send it to me, I'll pay for the return postage. I strive for accuracy in all of my pictures. If our pics look alike, I'll give you the seal of approval™. We could even send the original RAW images to somebody else to post-process also to get a second opinion. >>
I suggested yesterday that someone else image them, and it was not well received, as I recall. Thanks for stepping up, Mark.
And let's get the biggies, the monsters we are always seeing, Lloyd's, Mikey's, Sunnywood's.
And since I mentioned it, I will offer to pay the shipping since you are doing the work. And I mean it.
And we need to save the images we have been seeing for comparison.
Cool! Now we're getting somewhere.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS.
<< <i>So did NGC take possesion of all unopened bags, break the seals, and cherrypick the toners? >>
A definitive affirmative answer to that question would end the debate. Definitive, as in somebody who witnessed it, not hearsay.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, From my prospective, I spoke with the dealer who purchased the 9 bags, They were unopened and sealed with crimped lead seals - some of the seals dated back to the 1920's. That dealer opened the bags, put them in tubes and sent them to NGC for bulk grading. I also spoke with one of the NGC graders and he confirmed that NGC received the coins in tubes. Now, what was told to me was not hearsay it was factual information directly from the participients - but me repeating it here is hearsay - the only way it won't be hearsay is if the purchasing dealer and NGC post here directly.
Here's a link regarding this infromation that I posted several months ago
It is my opinion that the coins are no questions asked genuine bag toned Morgans. Some are drop dead gorgeous, a lot are very nice and many are mundane. You have to look at the coins and determine which are worth a premium and which are just so-so.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
ANY of you expert photo guys,and there are some very good ones,Russ,Mark,and others are welcome to come see me,and i will get some out of the bank and you can shoot them.If thats not convenient,i will be in Baltimore in November.I am sure Mikey or Sunnywood ,or Ron or Gary of Island Coins would do the same.I am in.Who is coming to see me? Edited to add.They will look even BETTER with expert photos as well.
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
<< <i>FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. >>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey >>
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink.
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
That statement is totally speculative and without merit. Love or hate Miles, it's a widely known fact that Miles is one of the best coin graders in the industry today. While he was PCGS, Miles not only finalized Modern submissions, he was also the finalizer for walkthrough submissions at many of the national conventions.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey >>
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink. >>
FlyingEagle: My clients aren't complaining -- they're more than satisfied with their Battle Creek purchases and I'm certainly happy with mine. The fact that you hide behind a message board ID confirms the reality that are you are nothing more than a cowardly troll with absolutely nothing meaningful to bring to the table. You obviously suffer from severe feelings of inadequacy and attempt to bouy your low self-esteem by denigrating others. I actually pity you and are exceedingly thankful that I don't have to walk a step in your shoes -- you must be in a great deal of pain. For the benefit of all those you come in contact with I encourage you to seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY!!!
OK. It's thrown around so much lately, it's hard to tell. Someone disagrees, they're a troll. Call someone a troll, they call you a troll. It's losing it's meaning, and has become just a way to stifle debate. It's just name calling.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey >>
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink. >>
FlyingEagle: My clients aren't complaining -- they're more than satisfied with their Battle Creek purchases and I'm certainly happy with mine. The fact that you hide behind a message board ID confirms the reality that are you are nothing more than a cowardly troll with absolutely nothing meaningful to bring to the table. You obviously suffer from severe feelings of inadequacy and attempt to bouy your low self-esteem by denigrating others. I actually pity you and are exceedingly thankful that I don't have to walk a step in your shoes -- you must be in a great deal of pain. For the benefit of all those you come in contact with I encourage you to seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY!!!
Mikey >>
Mikey I am sorry that you call me a troll since we have opinions than differ. I have lurked enough to know since I do not have 10000 posts my opinion does not matter to most. This dumb view on members usually comes from collectors and not dealers.
When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out.
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey >>
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey >>
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink. >>
FlyingEagle: My clients aren't complaining -- they're more than satisfied with their Battle Creek purchases and I'm certainly happy with mine. The fact that you hide behind a message board ID confirms the reality that are you are nothing more than a cowardly troll with absolutely nothing meaningful to bring to the table. You obviously suffer from severe feelings of inadequacy and attempt to bouy your low self-esteem by denigrating others. I actually pity you and are exceedingly thankful that I don't have to walk a step in your shoes -- you must be in a great deal of pain. For the benefit of all those you come in contact with I encourage you to seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY!!!
Mikey >>
Mikey I am sorry that you call me a troll since we have opinions than differ. I have lurked enough to know since I do not have 10000 posts my opinion does not matter to most. This dumb view on members usually comes from collectors and not dealers.
When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle: The TRUTH is that the BC dollars are NOT fake so I have nothing to worry about -- I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it. As far as me referring to you as a troll, you are one!!! When you besmirch someone's credibility (i.e., Miles Standish) and accuse someone else (me) of burying their clients, that crosses the line of common decency. It is no longer a legitimate difference of opinion between gentlemen, it's a troll acting like a troll. Reveal your identity (along with your credentials) and I would be more than happy to engage you in a gentlemanly debate. Continue to hide behind your monitor and anonymously cast aspersions -- then you're just another troll.
<< <i>I believe they are all NT, but perhaps the bags were stored for awhile in conditions favorable to a little additional toning.
What irritates me more is the tweaked photos of them. Island Coins takes the crappiest photos of all. >>
Actually It is very difficult to capture the colors and vibrency of those coins and Gary's photos are quite accurate - I seen the coins in hand and his images are very close to the actual look of the coins.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle - I think you have stated an opinion - care to provide us with some facts to back up your allegations?
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
<< <i>When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle - I think you have stated an opinion - care to provide us with some facts to back up your allegations? >>
<< <i>When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle - I think you have stated an opinion - care to provide us with some facts to back up your allegations? >>
FlyingEagle is a troll who is a reincarnation of the banned troll Derek2000.
<< <i>What's the story behind this collection, anyway? I was just searching old threads and one person said a dealer acquired several bags of Morgans and that's the "Battle Creek Collection." Is this true? >>
Not very exciting, is it? Dizzyfoxx will show up in a second with a little tent in his pants, breathlessly telling you there are secret little wrinkles in the story that make it even more wonderful. >>
Just back from the Magic Kingdom... Disneyland for those who are curious.
With regards to this thread...
...oh, and as far as excitement goes with the Battle Creek Collection...
<< <i>Know what you are talking about before nay-saying! Do some research folks! I haven't read the other thread but for ANY collector or dealer to suggest they are AT is absolute folly. The definition of Ignorance. Period. End of story. Next thread please.
I picked up a couple of these at the Texas Coin Show in Grapevine, TX this weekend. Here is a flatbed scanner image which looks pretty much like the coin in hand. Some of the jacked-up color images I have seen on the Internet are ridiculous.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
However, the stink about AT vs. NT on these Battle Creek dollars is rather crazy. I have had rather ext ensive background in chemistry, but will tell you that redox reactions are extremely variable and that whether on purpose or by accident the bags that these dollars were in had not only what residual oxidants such as sulfides, sulfones, sulfonamides, chlorides, but likely many more complex forms such as the ringed forms (some of which can be toxic). Not only that, but previous writers seem to have assumed that these bags are impermeable to liquids or gasses that might be in the environment - they truly are not. Oxidation as a rule will occur more readily when occuring with water solvent that can be simply in the form of humidity.
Actually, if anybody gets one of these pieces and submits it to surface spectroscopy, the key contaminant/oxidant will become known. That does not solve the argument exactly since it/they could be purposely added or simply altered the surface by accidental environmental exposure. We have no idea what substances, temperature or other environmental parameters these coins were exposed to.
I am not a PCGS grader but have collected copper and silver coins, US and foreign for many many years and note that I simply do not recall seeing the vivid colors of recent years on coin surfaces until the last several years. I tend to doubt they were a natural occurance, but if people get excited over them then let them do their thing.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
The AT allegations in this thread are hogwash and nonsense. Experience is a great teacher ... and those of us who have experience in the area of bag toned Morgans know these are the real deal. I don't really care what the rest of the collecting community thinks ... I chose to include two of the best examples of these amazing coins in our "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" toned Morgan collection. They both crossed to PCGS holders at the original grade (MS66) without any fuss or question about the obviously natural color. Have a look ... Sunnywood's "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" primary set ... and be sure to check out the images of the 1886 and 1887 dollars.
<< <i>The AT allegations in this thread are hogwash and nonsense. Experience is a great teacher ... and those of us who have experience in the area of bag toned Morgans know these are the real deal. I don't really care what the rest of the collecting community thinks ... I chose to include two of the best examples of these amazing coins in our "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" toned Morgan collection. They both crossed to PCGS holders at the original grade (MS66) without any fuss or question about the obviously natural color. Have a look ... Sunnywood's "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" primary set ... and be sure to check out the images of the 1886 and 1887 dollars.
<< <i>Battle Creek Morgan's are unquestionable NT, Those who think otherwise are mistaking
>>
OK just for fun and to prove a point, the article stated "unparalleled group of over 1,400 Morgan dollars" correct? so if someone has more than over 1400 it would be a scam, correct?
Now I'm going to start buying them, I want them all, If after 5 years I have more than 1500 of them you pay me what I spent on the collection. Are you willing to back up your statement with money? Anyone want to take the chalenge? I have an investor ready to sink a small fortune in this set.
Think about it before you make such a bold statement...
<< <i>This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious just how many Morgans were in a "mint sealed bag"?
The article states that: "For a coin to tone, it must have rested against the canvas fabric of the bag, which in turn needed to be stored in a stable environment that fostered its development." That's why I was curious about how many are in a bag, cause if there's very many, it doesn't seem like all of them would "rest against the fabric". >>
if the photo of the tag that was on the mint bag is correct, it looks like 1000 of them were in the bag.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>There were thousands of white coins and mini crescent coins that did not earn the BC designation.BTW,there were about 300-350 extremely nice toners out of 18,000 coins.Not a very high percentage.Less than than 2%were actually coins in that category.JMHO
So there's 2,000 in a bag and not 1,000? >>
There are 1000 in a bag. And, while Lloyd's math might be rusty, he does know his toners.
I have said it before and I will say it again.....the PCGS forum does not represent the known collecting universe.....it is a small microchasm of all the collectors out there and to think thoughts an opinions presented or expressed on these forums has any real barring on the collecting market is well........foolish in my opinion.
If folks don't want to buy BC coins......that is really good news for toning weenies everywhere becuase less demand means better prices so I guess collectors of BC coins should really be thanking those of you who and condeming the coins as AT.
THANK YOU
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There were thousands of white coins and mini crescent coins that did not earn the BC designation.BTW,there were about 300-350 extremely nice toners out of 18,000 coins.Not a very high percentage.Less than than 2%were actually coins in that category.JMHO
So there's 2,000 in a bag and not 1,000? >>
There are 1000 in a bag. And, while Lloyd's math might be rusty, he does know his toners.
Hey, I'm just thrilled to death that someone actually noticed one of my posts here!
Cher-Wood Forest Aviary
POTD - May 26, 2005
<< <i>someone made a very good point. 1400 toned coins out of 9,000 (9 bags) seems like an unusually high percentage of coins resting against the fabric. >>
OK you've got a coin geek here... now and then with some spare time on his hands over the last year.
1400 was the number of coins slabbed by NGC with the Battle Creek designation. That number can be broken down. There were 4 main auctions of BC coins, a fifth BC designated auction (e.g. it had some P.R. fluff in the catalogue about BC coins) with mainly multicoin lots (lets say averaging 3 to 4 coins a lot) and recently another nonBC designated auction with BC multicoin lots (lets say averaging 4 to 5 coins a lot). Realistically 99.9% of the decent toned BCs were in the first 4 auctions. In total in the 4 auctions there were 301 individual coin lots, e.g. the creme de la creme of the hoard. There were also 284 paired lots, of nice but generally not spectacular toners, indeed some of the coins in these paired lots were dogs, in my opinion. That's another 568 coins. Combining those 2 numbers you get 869 coins, not 1400.
It is my understanding, although I may be wrong, that NGC had some sort of financial incentive to include a BC name and Star designation on the coins. Hence the extra 531 coins got the name and star. If you actually see these coins they have AT BEST microcrescents of toning. This is the part of the deal where NGC REALLY whored itself out. Many of these coins are graded "uncirculated", e.g. they were in the 60-62 range. IMO none of these coins should have gotten the star designation. These were the coins sold in the 5th and 6th auctions.
Anyhow, getting back to the 869 coins, as I mentioned only 301 were individual coin lots. Of these, 70 coins with obverse toning and 28 coins with reverse toning cracked the $1,000 barrier (that INCLUDES the juice) when they went up for auction. In other words out of 9000 coins roughly 100 were considered the real creme de la creme of the BC hoard, or, if you will, roughly 1% of the coins.
The numbers are as follows for the first 4 auctions:
BC INDIVIDUAL LOTS
YEAR 1885 1886 1887 1904-O
GRADE 1-MS67
MS66 5 13 9 0
MS65 9 27 41 1
MS64 14 44 53 0
MS63 6 40 33 5
TOTAL 34 124 137 6 GRAND TOTAL 301
BC PAIRED LOTS
YEAR 1885 1886 1887 1904-O
GRADE
MS66 5 15 6 0
MS65 21 50 45 0
MS64 33 88 88 2
MS63 30 80 104 1
TOTAL 89 233 243 3 PAIRED GRAND TOTAL 568
TOTAL ALL BC COINS SOLD AT THE 4 AUCTIONS
ALL BC LOTS
YEAR 1885 1886 1887 1904-O
GRADE 1-MS67
MS66 10 28 15 0
MS65 30 77 86 1
MS64 47 132 141 2
MS63 36 120 137 6
TOTAL 123 357 380 9 GRAND TOTAL 869
EDITED TO ADD: Hmmm, it appears the formatting got screwed up when I copied and pasted the tables in here. Sorry about that.
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>So did NGC take possesion of all unopened bags, break the seals, and cherrypick the toners? >>
A definitive affirmative answer to that question would end the debate. Definitive, as in somebody who witnessed it, not hearsay.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It is my opinion that they are all AT. >>
An opinion is only worth the knowledge and experience behind it...
>>
...and one must factor in the bias (read financial interest) of the person speaking...Mike >>
Mike: I openly stated on this forum that I did indeed have a vested interest (bias if you will) and have never tried to hide that fact. However, that does not diminish the extent of my knowledge or experience (gained from THIRTY-THREE plus years as a FULL-TIME PROFESSIONAL, one of whose specialities includes exceptional ORIGINAL toned U.S. coinage). Moreover, I would not have spent TWO-HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS plus on AT coins in the first place (afterall I was not representing a buyer(s) but rather laying MY money on the line confident in the knowledge that I do know the difference).
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>someone made a very good point. 1400 toned coins out of 9,000 (9 bags) seems like an unusually high percentage of coins resting against the fabric. >>
There were NOT 1400 toned coins in the Battle Creek hoard!!! There were hundreds of stone WHITE coins and/or those with MICRO-THIN crescents that would barely qualify as toned. Had you viewed this group in its ENTIRETY as I did (I examined and made an offer on the intact group prior to the auction sales) you'd know that. That's what I dislike most about this message board -- so many with so little knowledge (firsthand or otherwise) spouting off...
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>Looks like smoebody had thier numbers screwed up... >>
?
Could you expand on this please?
U.S. Type Set
<< <i>One question for the forum scientists...If it takes decades in a canvas bag for the coins to tone as is the current mindset, would not all the sulfur or other toning producing chemicals that are in the canvas dissappated long before.? How long do you think that it takes this sulfur to leave the canvas when exposed to air? >>
It is my understanding that once a chemical reaction starts on a coin's surface, it often continues, often with differing results.
<< <i>I believe they are all NT, but perhaps the bags were stored for awhile in conditions favorable to a little additional toning.
What irritates me more is the tweaked photos of them. Island Coins takes the crappiest photos of all. >>
Island coins has pictures of BC coins that look exactly the same as they do in hand,and i have had them in hand.
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe they are all NT, but perhaps the bags were stored for awhile in conditions favorable to a little additional toning.
What irritates me more is the tweaked photos of them. Island Coins takes the crappiest photos of all. >>
Island coins has pictures of BC coins that look exactly the same as they do in hand,and i have had them in hand.
Island Coin photos suck right across the board. I'm not saying the coins aren't nice. But their photos are ridiculous.
ALL CAP TITLE and the very conclusive "....PERIOD"
with three EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!
I'M CONVINCED!!!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I would be willing to take pics of a vibrantly toned BC Morgan. You pay to send it to me, I'll pay for the return postage. I strive for accuracy in all of my pictures. If our pics look alike, I'll give you the seal of approval™. We could even send the original RAW images to somebody else to post-process also to get a second opinion.
<< <i>I would be willing to take pics of a vibrantly toned BC Morgan. You pay to send it to me, I'll pay for the return postage. >>
That is a fabulous idea.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I personally believe that many of the images that I've seen of the BC Morgans are worked over a bit too much in image editors to make them "look like they look in hand". I don't think that many of the pics are realistic.
I would be willing to take pics of a vibrantly toned BC Morgan. You pay to send it to me, I'll pay for the return postage. I strive for accuracy in all of my pictures. If our pics look alike, I'll give you the seal of approval™. We could even send the original RAW images to somebody else to post-process also to get a second opinion. >>
I suggested yesterday that someone else image them, and it was not well received, as I recall. Thanks for stepping up, Mark.
And let's get the biggies, the monsters we are always seeing, Lloyd's, Mikey's, Sunnywood's.
And since I mentioned it, I will offer to pay the shipping since you are doing the work. And I mean it.
And we need to save the images we have been seeing for comparison.
Cool! Now we're getting somewhere.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS.
<< <i>
<< <i>So did NGC take possesion of all unopened bags, break the seals, and cherrypick the toners? >>
A definitive affirmative answer to that question would end the debate. Definitive, as in somebody who witnessed it, not hearsay.
Russ, NCNE >>
Well, From my prospective, I spoke with the dealer who purchased the 9 bags, They were unopened and sealed with crimped lead seals - some of the seals dated back to the 1920's. That dealer opened the bags, put them in tubes and sent them to NGC for bulk grading. I also spoke with one of the NGC graders and he confirmed that NGC received the coins in tubes. Now, what was told to me was not hearsay it was factual information directly from the participients - but me repeating it here is hearsay - the only way it won't be hearsay is if the purchasing dealer and NGC post here directly.
Here's a link regarding this infromation that I posted several months ago
Link to TCCS thread regarding Battle Creek coins
It is my opinion that the coins are no questions asked genuine bag toned Morgans. Some are drop dead gorgeous, a lot are very nice and many are mundane. You have to look at the coins and determine which are worth a premium and which are just so-so.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. >>
Just call him Derek.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at ANACS. >>
That statement is totally speculative and without merit. Love or hate Miles, it's a widely known fact that Miles is one of the best coin graders in the industry today. While he was PCGS, Miles not only finalized Modern submissions, he was also the finalizer for walkthrough submissions at many of the national conventions.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Can you get this troll off of here?
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Carol,
Can you get this troll off of here?
John >>
TDN was just kidding, John.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at
ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink. >>
FlyingEagle: My clients aren't complaining -- they're more than satisfied with their Battle Creek purchases and I'm certainly happy with mine. The fact that you hide behind a message board ID confirms the reality that are you are nothing more than a cowardly troll with absolutely nothing meaningful to bring to the table. You obviously suffer from severe feelings of inadequacy and attempt to bouy your low self-esteem by denigrating others. I actually pity you and are exceedingly thankful that I don't have to walk a step in your shoes -- you must be in a great deal of pain. For the benefit of all those you come in contact with I encourage you to seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY!!!
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
I'll photo the coin/s.......I can only promise that the coin will look better in hand.
SM1 calls me a troublemaker....
--------------------------------------------
Sunday August 19, 2007 9:17AM
A mentor awarded " YOU SUCK!!"
<< <i>
<< <i>Carol,
Can you get this troll off of here?
John >>
TDN was just kidding, John. >>
Bill: I think John was referring to FlyingEagle -- right John?
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at
ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink. >>
FlyingEagle: My clients aren't complaining -- they're more than satisfied with their Battle Creek purchases and I'm certainly happy with mine. The fact that you hide behind a message board ID confirms the reality that are you are nothing more than a cowardly troll with absolutely nothing meaningful to bring to the table. You obviously suffer from severe feelings of inadequacy and attempt to bouy your low self-esteem by denigrating others. I actually pity you and are exceedingly thankful that I don't have to walk a step in your shoes -- you must be in a great deal of pain. For the benefit of all those you come in contact with I encourage you to seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY!!!
Mikey
Mikey I am sorry that you call me a troll since we have opinions than differ. I have lurked enough to know since I do not have 10000 posts my opinion does not matter to most. This dumb view on members usually comes from collectors and not dealers.
When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just got off the phone with Miles Standish (PCGS grader for twenty years who is now employed by ANACS) where we were discussing this Battle Creek thread. Miles has seen all of my Battle Creek dollars starting with the 2005 San Francisco ANA and as recently at September 2006 Long Beach show. He had this to say and gave me permission to quote him on this message board:
"The freshness of the luster and the quality of the color are consistent with and reminiscent of the Continental Bank hoard, of which I had the opportunity to exam thousands of individual coins of various dates through Clark Samuelson and Silvertown. The Battle Creek dollars are very obviously original. If anyone has any questions regarding these comments let them know that they are welcome to contact me personally at ANACS."
Miles certainly has the credentials and expertise to lend creedence to his opinion regarding the originality of the Battle Creek coins and I thank him for his comments.
Mikey
Miles is a modern coin guy and has been for many years. He no longer knows real coins cause if he did then he would not holder pink copper at
ANACS. >>
FlyingEagle: Gee, I'll pass this along to Miles, I'm sure he'll get a chuckle out of it. BTW, why don't you come out from hiding behind your forum ID so we'll all be aware of what genius made this statement. For your information Miles is not a "modern coin guy" exclusively as you imply nor has he lost his skill when it comes to grading "real" coins. I gave Miles his first job in the coin business after his initial stint at ANACS way back in the old days. He possessed outstanding grading skills then and I'm quite certain they've only improved with the passage of time. Your remarks are unfounded and without merit. If you feel the need to besmirch his good name in regard to his grading prowess then you should have the courage to come out of the closet and tell him man to man. Somehow I don't think you'll do this so why don't you just keep your toxic comments to yourself?
Mikey
Relax Mikey. Burying all your clients in those BC coins seems to have made you uptight.
Would you like to buy some ANACS copper? It is toned pink. >>
FlyingEagle: My clients aren't complaining -- they're more than satisfied with their Battle Creek purchases and I'm certainly happy with mine. The fact that you hide behind a message board ID confirms the reality that are you are nothing more than a cowardly troll with absolutely nothing meaningful to bring to the table. You obviously suffer from severe feelings of inadequacy and attempt to bouy your low self-esteem by denigrating others. I actually pity you and are exceedingly thankful that I don't have to walk a step in your shoes -- you must be in a great deal of pain. For the benefit of all those you come in contact with I encourage you to seek professional help, IMMEDIATELY!!!
Mikey
Mikey I am sorry that you call me a troll since we have opinions than differ. I have lurked enough to know since I do not have 10000 posts my opinion does not matter to most. This dumb view on members usually comes from collectors and not dealers.
When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle: The TRUTH is that the BC dollars are NOT fake so I have nothing to worry about -- I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it. As far as me referring to you as a troll, you are one!!! When you besmirch someone's credibility (i.e., Miles Standish) and accuse someone else (me) of burying their clients, that crosses the line of common decency. It is no longer a legitimate difference of opinion between gentlemen, it's a troll acting like a troll. Reveal your identity (along with your credentials) and I would be more than happy to engage you in a gentlemanly debate. Continue to hide behind your monitor and anonymously cast aspersions -- then you're just another troll.
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>I believe they are all NT, but perhaps the bags were stored for awhile in conditions favorable to a little additional toning.
What irritates me more is the tweaked photos of them. Island Coins takes the crappiest photos of all. >>
Actually It is very difficult to capture the colors and vibrency of those coins and Gary's photos are quite accurate - I seen the coins in hand and his images are very close to the actual look of the coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle - I think you have stated an opinion - care to provide us with some facts to back up your allegations?
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>
<< <i>When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle - I think you have stated an opinion - care to provide us with some facts to back up your allegations? >>
Name names?
You walk the bourse and talk to dealers.
<< <i>
<< <i>When the truth comes out about the fake BC dollars will you be willing to buy them all back at the selling price from your clients? If tomorrow word leaks about who made them will you buy them back at cost? You know the truth is coming out. >>
FlyingEagle - I think you have stated an opinion - care to provide us with some facts to back up your allegations? >>
FlyingEagle is a troll who is a reincarnation of the banned troll Derek2000.
<< <i>
<< <i>What's the story behind this collection, anyway? I was just searching old threads and one person said a dealer acquired several bags of Morgans and that's the "Battle Creek Collection." Is this true? >>
Not very exciting, is it? Dizzyfoxx will show up in a second with a little tent in his pants, breathlessly telling you there are secret little wrinkles in the story that make it even more wonderful. >>
Just back from the Magic Kingdom... Disneyland for those who are curious.
With regards to this thread...
...oh, and as far as excitement goes with the Battle Creek Collection...
<< <i>Know what you are talking about before nay-saying! Do some research folks! I haven't read the other thread but for ANY collector or dealer to suggest they are AT is absolute folly. The definition of Ignorance. Period. End of story. Next thread please.
Doug >>
I like the way Don Willis puts it............make up your own mind. If ya like em, buy 'em. If ya don't, pass.
i pass...............................................
However, the stink about AT vs. NT on these Battle Creek dollars is rather crazy. I have had rather ext ensive background in chemistry, but will tell you that redox reactions are extremely variable and that whether on purpose or by accident the bags that these dollars were in had not only what residual oxidants such as sulfides, sulfones, sulfonamides, chlorides, but likely many more complex forms such as the ringed forms (some of which can be toxic). Not only that, but previous writers seem to have assumed that these bags are impermeable to liquids or gasses that might be in the environment - they truly are not. Oxidation as a rule will occur more readily when occuring with water solvent that can be simply in the form of humidity.
Actually, if anybody gets one of these pieces and submits it to surface spectroscopy, the key contaminant/oxidant will become known. That does not solve the argument exactly since it/they could be purposely added or simply altered the surface by accidental environmental exposure. We have no idea what substances, temperature or other environmental parameters these coins were exposed to.
I am not a PCGS grader but have collected copper and silver coins, US and foreign for many many years and note that I simply do not recall seeing the vivid colors of recent years on coin surfaces until the last several years. I tend to doubt they were a natural occurance, but if people get excited over them then let them do their thing.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>The AT allegations in this thread are hogwash and nonsense. Experience is a great teacher ... and those of us who have experience in the area of bag toned Morgans know these are the real deal. I don't really care what the rest of the collecting community thinks ... I chose to include two of the best examples of these amazing coins in our "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" toned Morgan collection. They both crossed to PCGS holders at the original grade (MS66) without any fuss or question about the obviously natural color. Have a look ... Sunnywood's "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" primary set ... and be sure to check out the images of the 1886 and 1887 dollars.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Right on
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
<< <i>Battle Creek Morgan's are unquestionable NT, Those who think otherwise are mistaking
OK just for fun and to prove a point, the article stated "unparalleled group of over 1,400 Morgan dollars" correct? so if someone has more than over 1400 it would be a scam, correct?
Now I'm going to start buying them, I want them all, If after 5 years I have more than 1500 of them you pay me what I spent on the collection. Are you willing to back up your statement with money? Anyone want to take the chalenge? I have an investor ready to sink a small fortune in this set.
Think about it before you make such a bold statement...
<< <i>This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious just how many Morgans were in a "mint sealed bag"?
The article states that: "For a coin to tone, it must have rested against the canvas fabric of the bag, which in turn needed to be stored in a stable environment that fostered its development." That's why I was curious about how many are in a bag, cause if there's very many, it doesn't seem like all of them would "rest against the fabric". >>
if the photo of the tag that was on the mint bag is correct, it looks like 1000 of them were in the bag.