Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?

RYK · August 29, 2006 12:40AM

?

Which ones?

And, I hope to see Stman's response to this. He has been correct every time an AT issue has reared its ugly head.

rgl1345 · August 29, 2006 4:32AM

<< ?

Which ones?

And, I hope to see Stman's response to this. He has been correct every time an AT issue has reared its ugly head. >>

Wasn't a young member here selling BC's?

dizzyfoxx · August 29, 2006 4:46AM

I would say from all the ones I've seen in person (at shows and in-hand), they're as authentic as they are round.

ANACONDA · September 21, 2006 11:39PM

The toning is real on them. No one questions their authenticity unless they're just joking.

dragon · September 21, 2006 11:45PM

Really?

ANACONDA · September 21, 2006 11:48PM

Some of them come with textile which is hard to replicate accurately. Some of them are the most awesome toned Morgans I've seen.

poorguy · September 22, 2006 12:33AM

Doesn't anyone find it quite odd that so many of them came out all at once like that? A hoard of that many monster toners out of some obscure corner of the country? Too bad the Tons of coins held up in the Treasury vault (multiples of what was in Battle Creek) didn't yeild as many monster toned morgans even close to the degree of splendid color the BC coins had. They certainly do have proper toning patterns commonly found on bag toned morgans, including textile. That's either really exciting, or really scary. One obvious fact that differentiates BC morgans from run of the mill rainbow Morgans is the vividity (sp?) of the color. Many of them look very very bright with no heavy deepening of the color. One thing is for certain. They are darn beautiful!

Connecticoin · September 22, 2006 1:11AM

Could they have been "leftovers" from the Contiential Illinois Hoard?

Many of the stories of the CI hoard indicate it had a comparable number of bag toned beauties.

dragon · September 22, 2006 1:16AM

<<< Many of the stories of the CI hoard indicate it had a comparable number of bag toned beauties. >>>

I would say it did not, and I saw many of the bags firsthand.

bestclser1 · September 22, 2006 1:44AM

<< Could they have been "leftovers" from the Contiential Illinois Hoard?

Many of the stories of the CI hoard indicate it had a comparable number of bag toned beauties. >>

My belief is they ARE from the CBH,and i own a number from both hoards with similar toning patterns ,colors,and vividity of color(I like the word Brandon).The best of both hoards are VERY similar.Just from my own experience.

Russ · September 22, 2006 4:38AM

<< I examined all of them. In my opinion they were all absolutely AT. No way are these colors natural.

As the market corrects the buyers of these coins will feel a lot of pain.

-------------------------
Don Willis
Premium Numismatics, Inc. >>

Russ, NCNE

tradedollarnut · September 22, 2006 4:41AM

<< Some of them come with textile which is hard to replicate accurately. >>

I had an 1877 trade dollar in a top tier holder that had textile pattern on the obverse. The coin was most assuredly AT ...

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 4:42AM

<Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

Russ · September 22, 2006 4:47AM

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word... >>

Don Willis disagrees with you and, not only does he have many years experience, he viewed them all.

Russ, NCNE

pharmer · September 22, 2006 4:51AM

"Prenum, please feel free to not reply until I arrive to speak for you"-Forum Mommy

D · September 22, 2006 4:53AM

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel

FlyingEagle · September 22, 2006 4:55AM

<< The toning is real on them. No one questions their authenticity unless they're just joking. >>

The toning is fake on them. No one questions their inauthenticity unless they're just trying to sell them.

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:00AM

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from.

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:00AM

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word... >>

Don Willis disagrees with you and, not only does he have many years experience, he viewed them all.

Russ, NCNE >>

Just one man's opinion Russ, just like my opinion, and whatever your opinion may be.

RichieURich · September 22, 2006 5:02AM

<< Just one man's opinion Russ, just like my opinion, and whatever your opinion may be.

>>

Isn't this about the same as an opinion from a grading service? I.e., good or AT?

FlyingEagle · September 22, 2006 5:03AM

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement.

Russ · September 22, 2006 5:03AM

<< and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

And Santa Claus, along with his sidekick the Easter Bunny, are merrily skipping down the Yellow Brick Road.

Russ, NCNE

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:04AM

<< 

<< Just one man's opinion Russ, just like my opinion, and whatever your opinion may be.

>>

Isn't this about the same as an opinion from a grading service? I.e., good or AT? >>

I would say that's a fair argument. It's all about who's opinion you want to put stock in, mileage may vary.

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:06AM

<< 

<< and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

And Santa Claus, along with his sidekick the Easter Bunny, are merrily skipping down the Yellow Brick Road.

Russ, NCNE >>

As soon as thread takes a turn like this, it really makes me comfortable with my stance.

RYK · September 22, 2006 5:06AM

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement.

FE, you've gotta be an STman alt. That's a classic line, worthy a signature line post.

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:16AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement. >>

Are you saying I have bad judgement because I own a Battle Creek Morgan and happen to simply believe the history behind them?

Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, these coins are certainly famous, and perhaps at the same time, just a tad infamous?

tradedollarnut · September 22, 2006 5:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement. >>

Are you saying I have bad judgement because I own a Battle Creek Morgan and happen to simply believe the history behind them?

Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, these coins are certainly famous, and perhaps at the same time, just a tad infamous?

>>

Famous? Perhaps among Morgan toning afficianados.... the vast majority of the collecting field has probably never heard of them.

D · September 22, 2006 5:23AM

<< Famous? Perhaps among Morgan toning afficianados.... the vast majority of the collecting field has probably never heard of them. >>

True, additionally I would find it difficult to call them(BC Morgans) a collection opposed to an accumulation.

There's several more well known collections that have been auctioned off and have provenance a lot better than "Someone bought bags and let them sit."

-Daniel

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:23AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement. >>

Are you saying I have bad judgement because I own a Battle Creek Morgan and happen to simply believe the history behind them?

Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, these coins are certainly famous, and perhaps at the same time, just a tad infamous?

>>

Famous? Perhaps among Morgan toning afficianados.... the vast majority of the collecting field has probably never heard of them. >>

Hard to say for sure, but unless I'm mistaken, Morgan Dollars are one of the most collected of all US coinage. My guess would be that the vast majority of collectors within the entire hobby, knows all about them (or at least something about them). They're only a year+ within the hobby, I think there prestige and recognition will only escalate with time.

tradedollarnut · September 22, 2006 5:25AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement. >>

Are you saying I have bad judgement because I own a Battle Creek Morgan and happen to simply believe the history behind them?

Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, these coins are certainly famous, and perhaps at the same time, just a tad infamous?

>>

Famous? Perhaps among Morgan toning afficianados.... the vast majority of the collecting field has probably never heard of them. >>

Hard to say for sure, but unless I'm mistaken, Morgan Dollars are one of the most collected of all US coinage. My guess would be that the vast majority of collectors within the entire hobby, knows all about them (or at least something about them). They're only a year+ within the hobby, I think there prestige and recognition will only escalate with time. >>

I think you're being silly....

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:26AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement. >>

Are you saying I have bad judgement because I own a Battle Creek Morgan and happen to simply believe the history behind them?

Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, these coins are certainly famous, and perhaps at the same time, just a tad infamous?

>>

Famous? Perhaps among Morgan toning afficianados.... the vast majority of the collecting field has probably never heard of them. >>

Hard to say for sure, but unless I'm mistaken, Morgan Dollars are one of the most collected of all US coinage. My guess would be that the vast majority of collectors within the entire hobby, knows all about them (or at least something about them). They're only a year+ within the hobby, I think there prestige and recognition will only escalate with time. >>

I think you're being silly.... >>

ok, that's

pharmer · September 22, 2006 5:27AM

<< Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, >>

You are indeed proving that with every thread about these.

D · September 22, 2006 5:27AM

Only time will tell. I know in 20 or 30 years I'll still remember the Ford Collection, Bass Collection, Cardinal Collection and Eliasberg collection. (etc)

If BC Morgans aren't consistantly brought up on forums I might have trouble remembering their prestigious story.

-Daniel

FlyingEagle · September 22, 2006 5:29AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< <Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?>

To put it plain and simple, in a word...

>>

That's a very bold statement.

-Daniel >>

I trust my own judgement on what I have seen in-hand, and I completely believe the stated history behind them and where they came from. >>

Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement. >>

Are you saying I have bad judgement because I own a Battle Creek Morgan and happen to simply believe the history behind them?

Another post that proves to me that although this may be a tender subject to some for some reason, these coins are certainly famous, and perhaps at the same time, just a tad infamous?

>>

Many hoards have history. A told story does not make it true as is with many hoards.

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:29AM

<< Only time will tell. I know in 20 or 30 years I'll still remember the Ford Collection, Bass Collection, Cardinal Collection and Eliasberg collection. (etc)

If BC Morgans aren't consistantly brought up on forums I might have trouble remembering their prestigious story.

-Daniel >>

I think you 'hit the nail' perfectly Daniel, "Only time will tell" and

jamesfsm · September 22, 2006 5:35AM

It does seem that some, maybe Dizzy, are very sensitive about critics of the Battle Creek Collection.

I have seen quite a few of the BC's and for me I found the colors looked a bit "off" and that there were many that looked amazingly similar to other pieces in the same group.

I don't think the BC's are famous or infamous but rather debated among a small group of coin insiders and collectors.

CoinRaritiesOnline · September 22, 2006 5:39AM

We at Coin Rarities Online don't deal in monster toners. I have never bought or sold a single Battle Creek coin.

I have no stake in the outcome, but I have been doing this for quite a while. I'm often asked my opinion by other dealers on the national circuit at coin shows and during auction lot viewing on whether a particular coin is AT or NT.

I viewed all of the Battle Creek coins that were in the Superior auctions ( I do not know if some other groups of Battle Creek coins were sold elsewhere or sold privately. If there were more Battle Creek coins that were not in those auctions, then I haven't seen "all of them".). All of the coins that I viewed had original toning, in my opinion. I saw none that were even suspicious to me.

As to whether an 1883-O $1 in MS-65 is worth $12,000 -- well, THAT is another matter.

But -- that wasn't the question that was asked.

bestclser1 · September 22, 2006 5:44AM

<< We at Coin Rarities Online don't deal in monster toners. I have never bought or sold a single Battle Creek coin.

I have no stake in the outcome, but I have been doing this for quite a while. I'm often asked my opinion by other dealers on the national circuit at coin shows and during auction lot viewing on whether a particular coin is AT or NT.

I viewed all of the Battle Creek coins that were in the Superior auctions ( I do not know if some other groups of Battle Creek coins were sold elsewhere or sold privately. If there were more Battle Creek coins that were not in those auctions, then I haven't seen "all of them".). All of the coins that I viewed had original toning, in my opinion. I saw none that were even suspicious to me.

As to whether an 1883-O $1 in MS-65 is worth $12,000 -- well, THAT is another matter.

But -- that wasn't the question that was asked.

>>

Another mans opinion.

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:45AM

<< It does seem that some, maybe Dizzy, are very sensitive about critics of the Battle Creek Collection.

I have seen quite a few of the BC's and for me I found the colors looked a bit "off" and that there were many that looked amazingly similar to other pieces in the same group.

I don't think the BC's are famous or infamous but rather debated among a small group of coin insiders and collectors. >>

Some good points here. I own just one BC Morgan and have seen in-hand most of the better examples. I wouldn't say I'm at all sensitive to the nay sayers, actually quite the contrary. It puzzles me why some of the nay sayers seem so adamant about their stance? To me, and countless others, the coins are right on and although no one knows with 100% certainty the history of every toned coin, I think it's certainly safe to conclude that these are authentic and completely original specimens.
Of course this is JMWO and I'm still waiting at the end of the Yellow Brick Road for Santa and his side kick.

stman · September 22, 2006 5:45AM

<< Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement.

FE, you've gotta be an STman alt. That's a classic line, worthy a signature line post.

>>

stman don't play that game.

Russ · September 22, 2006 5:52AM

<< It puzzles me why some of the nay sayers seem so adimant about their stance? >>

You're kidding, right? Do you even read anything that you yourself post? It is not the naysayer's stating that anything is a "fact". It is you who does so. Those who have questioned the authenticity of the color have clearly stated that it is their "opinion".

Russ, NCNE

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 5:55AM

<< 

<< It puzzles me why some of the nay sayers seem so adimant about their stance? >>

You're kidding, right? Do you even read anything that you yourself post? It is not the naysayer's stating that anything is a "fact". It is you who does so. Those who have questioned the authenticity of the color have clearly stated that it is their "opinion".

Russ, NCNE >>

It's all opinions Russ, mine, his, hers, theirs. The beauty of this forum is the diversity of opinions. I still don't think I've heard yours on this subject? Or did I just miss it?

Russ · September 22, 2006 5:59AM

<< I still don't think I've heard yours on this subject? >>

You're right, you haven't.

Russ, NCNE

dizzyfoxx · September 22, 2006 6:01AM

<< 

<< I still don't think I've heard yours on this subject? >>

You're right, you haven't.

Russ, NCNE >>

I didn't think so.

coinguy1 · September 22, 2006 7:45AM

As per my post to the other thread on this hot topic:

<< I believe that anyone who has bought or sold one or more of these coins is biased, and even, that some who have done neither are also biased.

Bias does not diminish one's knowledge or expertise, however.

I have viewed a good number of Battle Creek Morgans, certainly many more than some people and just as certainly, far fewer than others. Ditto for the number of other Morgan Dollars I have examined and/or graded over the years. The color on the Battle Creek Dollars looks uncommonly vibrant/bright/wild/vivid in a number of instances, but my guess/opinion is that it's original/natural.

I think that anyone who says they are 100% sure of anything with respect to much of what we discuss with respect to coins (including, of course, the AT/NT debates), should at least consider using a slightly lower % of certainty in their statements. After all, numerous experts have been 100% certain of various things numismatic over the years, which turned out to be incorrect. These are my OPINIONS and I am NOT 100% certain of them.

>>

tradedollarnut · September 22, 2006 7:49AM

I'm not 100% certain I want to hear your opinion if you aren't 100% certain of it....

RYK · September 22, 2006 8:48AM

<< Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement.>>

<<FE, you've gotta be an STman alt. That's a classic line, worthy a signature line post. >>

<<stman don't play that game.>>

I know stman would not have an alt, but that line ("Good stories sell bad coins to people with bad judgement") was definitely out of the stman quotebook.

Are any of the Battle Creek Morgans AT?

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