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What should I do?-->UPDATED 9-21-06 3:15 PM Pacific Time

RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I saw a "pattern" on a dealer's website. I believe it is a cast piece. Aside from appearing fake, the website says it is not listed in any references (which it is not). I've never dealt with them, and they've probably never even heard of me. Should I email them my thoughts or do nothing?
Rick Kay
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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Comments

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    123cents123cents Posts: 7,178 ✭✭✭
    Leave it alone. Do nothing.
    image
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    Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    If you are knowledgable enough to refute it then by all means do so. You could keep somebody from getting burned with a bad coin. Must be raw huh?
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
    It is raw, and, based on the pix, I'm 90% sure it's cast.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    ERER Posts: 7,345 ✭
    Are you 100%? If not.......
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    CoindexterCoindexter Posts: 1,074
    ER's point is valid. If you aren't 100% you're probably just stirring it.
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    BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the many posts of your that I have read on this forum you have been both diplomatic and reasonable. I have no doubt that you could bring this to their attention in the same reasonable and diplomatic way. And should, if only for the good of the hobby and benefit of any future owner.

    Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Are you 100%? If not....... >>

    See above.image

    Good timing. The fact that I've never heard of it, along with the appearance bring me pretty close to certain.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
    BBE: Thanks for the kind words. My concern is that they might interpret a no-name coming out of the blue and questioning its authenticity to be butting in.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Send me the link. If it's bad, I'll tell you and you should call the guy. If he's legit, he'll welcome the call. If not, who cares what he thinks?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 11,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure about what you should do but is the date of the coin 1852?
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    ccrccr Posts: 2,446
    I think Dog97 and ERs` points are valid. In the purist sense in the spirit of collecting, if it really can be proven or seriously looked into in an academic way, at least consider discussing it.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm not sure about what you should do but is the date of the coin 1852? >>



    Yes.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    NumisOxideNumisOxide Posts: 11,036 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i><< I'm not sure about what you should do but is the date of the coin 1852? >>



    Yes. >>



    I know what coin and dealer you have in mind but I've never done business with them.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the input, guys. I'll have to mull it over for a while.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    Derek2100Derek2100 Posts: 248
    Stay away from it.
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Acquire it for your crap/counterfeit collection.

    By the way, you owe me $300 for the counterfeit I bought last year, if you still want it... image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
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    BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>BBE: Thanks for the kind words. My concern is that they might interpret a no-name coming out of the blue and questioning its authenticity to be butting in. >>



    "No name"?

    Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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    tpfnartpfnar Posts: 247
    image
    Derek2100
    Senior Member

    Posts: 282
    Joined: Aug 2006


    << <i>Stay away from it. >>



    Is it on Derek's site? image

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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Acquire it for your crap/counterfeit collection.

    By the way, you owe me $300 for the counterfeit I bought last year, if you still want it... image >>



    What was it? If you still have it, I want it.



    << <i>"No name"? >>



    Yes. Aside from here and a couple big dealers, I'm pretty anonymous in the field.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    MajorDutyMajorDuty Posts: 1,998


    << <i>image
    Derek2100
    Senior Member

    Posts: 282
    Joined: Aug 2006


    << <i>Stay away from it. >>



    Is it on Derek's site? image >>



    You mean Laura's.
    image
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    seemyauctionseemyauction Posts: 3,655 ✭
    You could ask questions about it without calling it out.....you will probably figure out real quick what kind of person you are dealing with....

    Is there a satisfaction guarantee?


    imageCoinZip.com
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    Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    There should be some big time well known reputable dealer or pattern collector on this forum that is willing to stick his neck out for the good of the hobby and make the call for you. I see where it could be an uncomfortable situation having to convince him of your credentials then challange his or his lack thereof.
    Do you Pattern Collectors generally buy unknown, uncertified varities or it is like with a VAM collector thinking he's cherried a new one?
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
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    coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Rick, you are knowledgeable and a gentleman. Even on the off chance that you are mistaken, there is no harm in at least making the seller aware of the possibility that the coin is no good - don't say it quite like that though.image You will also know that you tried to help. As Andy said "If he's legit, he'll welcome the call. If not, who cares what he thinks?"
    image
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    RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with BlindedByEgo, Andy Lustig, and Mark Feld. I think you should inform the seller of your concerns, with your usual diplomacy. I do this with eBay and Teletrade auctions routinely.

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

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    BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,790 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The "do nothing" approach is why there is the problem that many see with coin doctors and dealers in general.
    Rick, I agree with those that say you handle yourself well and should go ahead and inform the seller of the possibility.

    You are one who wants to better the hobby and aren't in it to crush a dealer or stab at them so, if legit, they should be thankful (even if you are wrong as that means you are looking at their goods as a potential customer).

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

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    RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I agree with BlindedByEgo, Andy Lustig, and Mark Feld. >>



    I agree with Rich.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
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    BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,525 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I agree with BlindedByEgo, Andy Lustig, and Mark Feld. >>



    I agree with Rich.

    Russ, NCNE >>



    I agree with Russ
    JR Newsletter Online Edition
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    mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Contact the seller and explain to him that you are a pattern collector, and you never heard of his pattern coin. Then ask what he did to determine it is a genuine pattern, instead of a cast counterfeit.

    I really think those specializing in a coin series have the responsibility to help clarify in issues such as this. Serious Bust Half collectors are known to clear up problem ebay listings, even if it takes many of us to contact the same seller with the problem listing.image Saving a newbie from buying a problem coin might just make this newbie stick with coin collecting, instead of getting discouraged, and quit collecting.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
    I emailed him today:

    "Hi. I have been collecting patterns, as well as counterfeit patterns, for several years, and I’ve never heard of these coins. Have you asked any third party grading service to authenticate them? Thank. Rick Kay"

    His response tonight:

    "HI RICK,
    PCGS & NGC WILL NOT GRADE THE DIE TRIAL PATTERNS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN ANY REFERENCE GUIDE,INCLUDING JUDD'S APPENDIX.I DID NOT TRY SOME OF THE OTHER SERVICES,ALTHOUGH CERTIFICATION WISE THAT MAY BE A GOOD IDEA.PLS ADV & THKS [Name omitted]"

    I was not really happy with his explanation, as I feel PCGS and NGC would've bagged them as not genuine, but sent this email:

    "Hi, [Name omitted]. If they could be certified by ANACS or ICG, I’d be interested in both. If it weren’t possible, I’d probably pass. Thanks. Rick"

    Will update as to his response tomorrow.image
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

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    michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭✭
    do nothing as they already know it is a fake cast highly questionable piece
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    numobrinumobri Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭


    Sounds like you went about it in a very nice way.


    Brian
    NUMO
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭
    I still have not heard back after my last email. This, in conjunction with his less than truthful reason for the coins' not having been slabbed lead me toward a conclusion he knew they were fake.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

    <
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    RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i>HI RICK,
    PCGS & NGC WILL NOT GRADE THE DIE TRIAL PATTERNS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT IN ANY REFERENCE GUIDE,INCLUDING JUDD'S APPENDIX.I DID NOT TRY SOME OF THE OTHER SERVICES,ALTHOUGH CERTIFICATION WISE THAT MAY BE A GOOD IDEA.PLS ADV & THKS >>



    Looks like he's sellling them to get some money to buy a new keyboard.

    Russ, NCNE
    eBay consignment sales | | Collectibles from Resco CCC
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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They know.
    Larry

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