Can we get more background on ANR’s discovery of the 1795 half cent overstrike on Judd-17 on July 27
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I was taking a look at the new ANR catalog. I noticed Lot #94, which is a discovery coin that ANR found during a review of a collection of half cents. The coin seems really cool, and you can actually see the underdate of 1794 from the copper half dollar die trial (a Judd-17), as well as the stars. How cool is that? I included a picture below, as well as the description.
As I was reading the description, I was almost hyperventilating. I was so excited that I actually asked Mrs. Longacre if she wanted to take a look at the discovery coin. She responded, “I guess”, and I explained how it was made. To my shock and amazement, she actually looked really close at the picture and saw the second date and the stars. She asked if I was going to buy it. I have no clue what the coin is worth, so I said it is probably $100,000. She responded that we don’t need it that badly.
Does anyone know specifically who at ANR discovered this coin? Can you add a little bit of color around the story of how it was found? This is obviously a pretty significant find, and it is not something that happens every day. Because it was found so late in the day (and probably took some time to confirm), is this something that requires an immediate call to QDB to inform him, even if you have to call in the middle of the night and wake him up? Do other frantic calls get made to the EAC and copper authorities to inform them of the find? Do other staffers get annoyed that they did not make the find (i.e., “if only I got to catalog the half cents this time, then I would be the one to go down in history as the discoverer. I can’t believe that punk [Mr. X] always gets the glory…”).
*******************************
1795 C-6a, B-6a. Rarity-2 as a variety. Rarity-7+ as an overstrike on a Judd-17 1794 half dollar die trial. F-12,
sharpness of F-15, thin diagonal scratch on obverse. 85.3 grains. A highly important new discovery, consigned to ANR unattributed but recognized as a rarity vital to both pattern and half cent specialists. As with the piece we discovered and sold in our June 2004 Medio sale (Lot 2081 at $13,800), this Cohen-6a is struck on a cut-down copper die trial from dies for a 1794 half dollar. This piece, however, shows a full bold date from the undertype, marking it as perhaps the best of the four known half cents struck on copper 1794 half dollar die trials. Two intact 1794 copper half dollar die trials are known, catalogued as Judd-17, but both are impounded: a low grade piece struck from the O-109 dies in the collection of the Smithsonian Institution and a high quality piece from the same dies recently found in the Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum. The other four examples known were all used as hosts for 1795 half cents; each of these half cents is in VG-Fine grade overall and most show more reverse undertype than evidence of the obverse.
The present specimen is a very nice example, with good medium brown color and lighter golden tan in areas of the fields. The sharpness is excellent and even on the host coin. A thin diagonal scratch runs from the cap through 95 of the date, appearing raised but really just left by a sharp utensil then worn. Some other scattered marks are seen, consistent with the level of wear.
The undertype is especially bold on this new discovery, making it perhaps the most important of the four half cents now known. The full 1794 date is easily seen in the right obverse field, near the rim in a vertical position. Star 15 is seen in the field in front of Liberty's nose while star 14 is plain around Y of LIBERTY. Liberty's eye is easily seen behind the cap on the half cent. On the reverse, TES of STATES from the half dollar can be seen between OF AMERICA on the half cent, with plentiful leaves from the wreath, portions of the eagle, and some letters able to be made out nearby. Enough detail remains from the host half dollar striking that the dies may be easily attributed as Overton-106, apparently the first copper striking from these half dollar dies known. Thus, this undertype deserves a new Pollock numerical listing and a separate entry on uspatterns.com. That website enumerates the known 1794 copper half dollar die trials as follows:
Overton-101. Cut down and used as a 1795 C-6a planchet. Sold in Superior's sale of September 2003.
Overton-104. Cut down and used as a 1795 C-6a planchet. Noted in Breen.
Overton-105. Two are known, but cut down and used as planchets for 1795 C-6a, including the piece sold in our June 2004 Medio sale.
Overton-109. Two are known, both intact and impounded, thus forever off the market.
Additionally, there is a 1795 C-6a known struck on a cut-down 1795 O-117 half dollar (Judd-22). Sold in 1974 as part of the Ruby Collection.
We also note that 1794 half dollars were not the only set-up pieces struck in copper: two 1794 dollars (Judd-18 and Judd-19, the latter in the Smithsonian) are known in copper, a single 1794 "half disme" (Judd-14, in the Smithsonian) is known in copper, and two 1794 half dimes (Judd-15 with reeded edge, Judd-16 with plain edge). All of these copper 1794 patterns are extremely rare, indeed, Judd-14, Judd-16, Judd-18, and Judd-19 are all unique! Only Judd-15, Judd-16, cut down specimens of Judd-17 (as here), and Judd-18 can ever be owned by private collectors. Indeed, for pattern collectors, the present discovery should be considered the finest available Judd-17 and the most detailed striking from this Judd number in private hands. Of course, for the completist, it is also the only Overton-106 die trial known and thus is unique in the Pollock numbering system. Beyond its rarity, the story it tells about the early attempts at coining precious metal by the Philadelphia Mint, as well as the efforts to save money and keep the Mint's doors open, is a very important chapter in Mint history. The desirable aspects of this coin are many, and we are delighted to be the first to offer it to the modern collecting public.
Discovered in Wolfeboro, NH among an old New Hampshire collection of half cents at 9:30 PM on July 27, 2006.
As I was reading the description, I was almost hyperventilating. I was so excited that I actually asked Mrs. Longacre if she wanted to take a look at the discovery coin. She responded, “I guess”, and I explained how it was made. To my shock and amazement, she actually looked really close at the picture and saw the second date and the stars. She asked if I was going to buy it. I have no clue what the coin is worth, so I said it is probably $100,000. She responded that we don’t need it that badly.
Does anyone know specifically who at ANR discovered this coin? Can you add a little bit of color around the story of how it was found? This is obviously a pretty significant find, and it is not something that happens every day. Because it was found so late in the day (and probably took some time to confirm), is this something that requires an immediate call to QDB to inform him, even if you have to call in the middle of the night and wake him up? Do other frantic calls get made to the EAC and copper authorities to inform them of the find? Do other staffers get annoyed that they did not make the find (i.e., “if only I got to catalog the half cents this time, then I would be the one to go down in history as the discoverer. I can’t believe that punk [Mr. X] always gets the glory…”).
*******************************
1795 C-6a, B-6a. Rarity-2 as a variety. Rarity-7+ as an overstrike on a Judd-17 1794 half dollar die trial. F-12,
sharpness of F-15, thin diagonal scratch on obverse. 85.3 grains. A highly important new discovery, consigned to ANR unattributed but recognized as a rarity vital to both pattern and half cent specialists. As with the piece we discovered and sold in our June 2004 Medio sale (Lot 2081 at $13,800), this Cohen-6a is struck on a cut-down copper die trial from dies for a 1794 half dollar. This piece, however, shows a full bold date from the undertype, marking it as perhaps the best of the four known half cents struck on copper 1794 half dollar die trials. Two intact 1794 copper half dollar die trials are known, catalogued as Judd-17, but both are impounded: a low grade piece struck from the O-109 dies in the collection of the Smithsonian Institution and a high quality piece from the same dies recently found in the Vienna Kunsthistorisches Museum. The other four examples known were all used as hosts for 1795 half cents; each of these half cents is in VG-Fine grade overall and most show more reverse undertype than evidence of the obverse.
The present specimen is a very nice example, with good medium brown color and lighter golden tan in areas of the fields. The sharpness is excellent and even on the host coin. A thin diagonal scratch runs from the cap through 95 of the date, appearing raised but really just left by a sharp utensil then worn. Some other scattered marks are seen, consistent with the level of wear.
The undertype is especially bold on this new discovery, making it perhaps the most important of the four half cents now known. The full 1794 date is easily seen in the right obverse field, near the rim in a vertical position. Star 15 is seen in the field in front of Liberty's nose while star 14 is plain around Y of LIBERTY. Liberty's eye is easily seen behind the cap on the half cent. On the reverse, TES of STATES from the half dollar can be seen between OF AMERICA on the half cent, with plentiful leaves from the wreath, portions of the eagle, and some letters able to be made out nearby. Enough detail remains from the host half dollar striking that the dies may be easily attributed as Overton-106, apparently the first copper striking from these half dollar dies known. Thus, this undertype deserves a new Pollock numerical listing and a separate entry on uspatterns.com. That website enumerates the known 1794 copper half dollar die trials as follows:
Overton-101. Cut down and used as a 1795 C-6a planchet. Sold in Superior's sale of September 2003.
Overton-104. Cut down and used as a 1795 C-6a planchet. Noted in Breen.
Overton-105. Two are known, but cut down and used as planchets for 1795 C-6a, including the piece sold in our June 2004 Medio sale.
Overton-109. Two are known, both intact and impounded, thus forever off the market.
Additionally, there is a 1795 C-6a known struck on a cut-down 1795 O-117 half dollar (Judd-22). Sold in 1974 as part of the Ruby Collection.
We also note that 1794 half dollars were not the only set-up pieces struck in copper: two 1794 dollars (Judd-18 and Judd-19, the latter in the Smithsonian) are known in copper, a single 1794 "half disme" (Judd-14, in the Smithsonian) is known in copper, and two 1794 half dimes (Judd-15 with reeded edge, Judd-16 with plain edge). All of these copper 1794 patterns are extremely rare, indeed, Judd-14, Judd-16, Judd-18, and Judd-19 are all unique! Only Judd-15, Judd-16, cut down specimens of Judd-17 (as here), and Judd-18 can ever be owned by private collectors. Indeed, for pattern collectors, the present discovery should be considered the finest available Judd-17 and the most detailed striking from this Judd number in private hands. Of course, for the completist, it is also the only Overton-106 die trial known and thus is unique in the Pollock numbering system. Beyond its rarity, the story it tells about the early attempts at coining precious metal by the Philadelphia Mint, as well as the efforts to save money and keep the Mint's doors open, is a very important chapter in Mint history. The desirable aspects of this coin are many, and we are delighted to be the first to offer it to the modern collecting public.
Discovered in Wolfeboro, NH among an old New Hampshire collection of half cents at 9:30 PM on July 27, 2006.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
1
Comments
It was in a paper envelope with a brief typewritten attribution, something along the lines of "1795 half cent. No pole." I was in one of the tinier offices, basically an annex with some file cabinets, a table, a computer, and a lamp. My copy of Manley was on the desk, since I can use it for both die state and variety attributions. I had a Diet Coke a few feet away. No music was playing.
The 1793 and 1794 half cents from this date set had already been attributed, valued, graded, and placed in their pre-cataloguing envelope. When the 1795 fell out of the envelope, it looked utterly typical -- Fine or so, nice color, a single scratch, a little bit of undertype. Undertypes have always fascinated me (I once did an ANA Numismatic Theatre program tracing the history of overstriking from ancient times to modern), so I took a good look at the evidence of undertype. The 1794 date jumped out at me. Naturally, I did the first thing you're supposed to do when you discover something.
I yelled an obscenity. Loudly.
John Pack was also in the building, and from my Mel Blanc-esque hooting and hollering he knew I'd come across something cool. Of course, John and I had both seen one of these before. I found the last one at a similar hour of night in spring 2004, on my brown couch in Annapolis, when dealer Chris Young came to visit (we were going fossil hunting the next day) and asked me what the hell his new 1795 half cent was struck on. Lightning strikes twice, it seems, as these two are half the total population of the overstrikes!
Anyway, when THIS one was found, I yelled, showed John Pack, sent an email off to QDB and Rick Bagg telling them about it, and went on to other more pedestrian half cents in the same box. Not 10 minutes later, Dave emailed back -- he was still awake, still writing, and was as excited about it as I was.
The last one sold for about $13,000 and this one will likely bring a similar sum, though the undertype is more prominent on this one than the other piece.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>C'mon Longacre, who do you think is awake and at the office at 9:30 PM working on half cents? The other employees are there early enough that they can be home by then!
It was in a paper envelope with a brief typewritten attribution, something along the lines of "1795 half cent. No pole." I was in one of the tinier offices, basically an annex with some file cabinets, a table, a computer, and a lamp. My copy of Manley was on the desk, since I can use it for both die state and variety attributions. I had a Diet Coke a few feet away. No music was playing.
The 1793 and 1794 half cents from this date set had already been attributed, valued, graded, and placed in their pre-cataloguing envelope. When the 1795 fell out of the envelope, it looked utterly typical -- Fine or so, nice color, a single scratch, a little bit of undertype. Undertypes have always fascinated me (I once did an ANA Numismatic Theatre program tracing the history of overstriking from ancient times to modern), so I took a good look at the evidence of undertype. The 1794 date jumped out at me. Naturally, I did the first thing you're supposed to do when you discover something.
I yelled an obscenity. Loudly.
John Pack was also in the building, and from my Mel Blanc-esque hooting and hollering he knew I'd come across something cool. Of course, John and I had both seen one of these before. I found the last one at a similar hour of night in spring 2004, on my brown couch in Annapolis, when dealer Chris Young came to visit (we were going fossil hunting the next day) and asked me what the hell his new 1795 half cent was struck on. Lightning strikes twice, it seems, as these two are half the total population of the overstrikes!
Anyway, when THIS one was found, I yelled, showed John Pack, sent an email off to QDB and Rick Bagg telling them about it, and went on to other more pedestrian half cents in the same box. Not 10 minutes later, Dave emailed back -- he was still awake, still writing, and was as excited about it as I was.
The last one sold for about $13,000 and this one will likely bring a similar sum, though the undertype is more prominent on this one than the other piece. >>
truly a great read John
what was the word you yelled
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Longacre, I'm surprised you don't know that QDB is at his computer reading and responding to e-mails at 9:30 in the evening.
<< <i>Naturally, I did the first thing you're supposed to do when you discover something.
I yelled an obscenity. Loudly. >>
Isn't that a great feeling? Not that it's on the same scale, but I did the exact same thing when I found my icon coin unattributed in a group of clipped Lincolns. Except it was a bit later in the evening, and my wife did not appreciate the wake-up call.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Great story! Congratulations on the find(s).
More on these pieces will be in the October issue of Numismatist in my column, Early American Money. I decided to wait to publish that column until after the sale of the coin so no one could accuse me of using my Numismatist bullypulpit for commercial gain. Then again, if that were my intent, this thing would have been tossed in a group lot as just another circulated common 1795 half cent and I would have tried to buy the lot for $800 or somesuch!
IGWT -- it's been a dream of many numismatic cataloguers to publish the catalogue they WISH they could write. Someday perhaps I'll do such a thing, toungue in cheek. I did manage to get the term "testicular fortitude" into a description once just to see if anyone actually read the damn things. Writing conventions die hard, though, and melba toast is the order of the day -- with a little color thrown in here or there just to stave off insanity and boredom.
Sean -- the expletive I yelled was %$^^$# of course. Or maybe that was just the first one.
Dennis (er, Numisma) -- nice to see you back!
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I wonder if the cataloger is as sharp and if there are any procedures in place to prevent something valuable being cataloged as something common. >>
There is a procedure: hire competent people who do careful work.
We don't miss much, but I won't say we never miss anything. A cataloguer has to have a specialist's knowledge in several diverse areas. I missed a very significant rarity once, a territorial whose metallic composition was misjudged by myself and others, and I am loathe to ever let it happen again. As primary cataloguer of the piece, it was my responsibility.
Of course, in a definitive case of schadenfraude, I giggle politely whenever I find out that some group lot in a competitor's sale is bid up to $18,000 or something -- that means they missed something! I know of a very rare Connecticut that was located in a group lot major firm's sale after being utterly missed by their cataloguer (who made no attempts to assign an attribution number) and a NC early date large cent that was located in a different competitor's group lot section after likewise not being attributed. The best reason to ensure it doesn't happen to me is to attribute and examine EVERYTHING no matter how awful/worthless it looks at first glance. This sometimes frustrates my coworkers, seeing me with a pile of putative $10 large cents and an attribution reference, but damn it I don't want someone giggling with delight because I missed something! It's either due diligence for our consignors, or anal and obsessive protection of harm to my ego, or both.
Luckily, even when things do get missed, there are enough smart people that bid that SOMEONE usually realizes the error. Indeed, someones tend to come in pairs, resulting in things like junk lots selling for $18,000. True auction cherrypicks in major firms sales are fairly unusual.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
Who would play the part of John K? Who would portray John P and QDB? Would the expletive "Holy S.....!" be bleeped or emphasized? Will John Williams do the music?
<< <i>Great coin story! So, this becomes episode 5 of the "Great Coin Discoveries" on the "Numismatologist" channel ? Tracking shot over files and boxes and clutter...cut to hands holding coins...the boring stuff of cataloging...repetition -- env after env of duplicates...a coin dramatically rolls from its envelope -- a sudden grasp to save it from falling behind the radiator ...a diet Coke (note product placement revenue) nearly spilled....etc, etc.
Who would play the part of John K? Who would portray John P and QDB? Would the expletive "Holy S.....!" be bleeped or emphasized? Will John Williams do the music? >>
If we are going Hollywood with this, RWB, we will need to take some artistic license and have Angelina Jolie play the part of the discoverer (no offense to anyone at ANR).
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
John P?
I'll leave the honor or casting QDB to Longacre.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Longacre - I'm disappointed that you didn't share this great find with Consuela.
I'm not too sure abotu David Schwimmer or Colin Farrell though. I'd rather have Wesley Snipes play me.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
<< <i>(I am embarrassed to admit that I don't even know if Scott is still alive; I am not up on my Hollywood stars): >>
George C. Scott died on September 22, 1999 at the age of 71 from a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm. He was interred in the Westwood Village Memorial Park Cemetery in Westwood, California.
....The script follows the coin in flashback as copper trial pieces were banged out to the clopping of horses and grunting of sweaty workmen. A mangled 1794 copper trial dollar ... Defective, thrown in a box of junk, retrieved by little Nell, daughter of the Kindly Coiner, and cut down to half-cent diameter. Saved from a liquid oblivion, the coin is struck as a half-cent and begins its travels from hand to hand...cut to coin being caught an instant before rolling out of sight..... Next scene - The Auction Room....
In all seriousness, RWB could probably write one hell of a movie script on the Mint in the first two decades of the 20th century. Of course, were Saint-Gaudens depicted honestly, it would be at least rated R!
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
Was he another Breen type?
I recall one story about a clothing-optional party atop the old Madison Square Garden. Of course, the major thrust of my reading about Saint Gaudens was not his social life, so there may be much more to say!
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
So I take it this discovery is almost half as important as that 2003 cent in PCGS MS70?
Obscurum per obscurius
I was just waiting for a client to approve an email I wrote for him, so I thought I'd write a dramatic script...."Earlier, Little Nell, whose job of putting freshly struck coins in little velvet bags for coin collectors of the future, and who had been RIF’d by the evil Director, had been rescued from beneath the thundering coinage press where she had been left to suffer by the dastardly Director. Little Nell was so impressed by the Kindly Coiner's smile and gentle manner that she resolved to one day grow up and have a great-great-great-great granddaughter, also named Nell, who would be Mint Director and end all the evils of parting and refining and off-metaling and galavanoing around and other secret arts....now back to our story...."
I think by the time SG was sending stuff to the mint, he was a bit past the partying stage. However, A. Piatt Andrew (dog collar and all) and Henry Sleeper could put on a show - but maybe a bit too much like a recent cowboy movie with the cowpokes ridin' side saddle.... Then there was Bigelow and his weekend long gentlemen only, clothing optional parties and "special oriental pictures" collection.
<< <i>
melba toast is "the order of the day"
>>
Uh oh. Pistareen has been reading way too much QDB literature. "Front row center" is not far behind, I think
Awesome data on the 1795 C-6a. Thanks for sharing.
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-Amanda
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Thanks for sharing the story...
<< <i>did you live in Annapolis for a period of time? Just curious cause I'm an Annapolitan myself. >>
Yep, I'm still here, though most of my work actually takes place in Wolfeboro.
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
I saw in an earlier entry that these are valued at about $13,000. To me, that seems kinda low for a coin of this historical magnitude.