Is this morgan a candidate for a quick dip?-RSESULTS ARE IN!

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 12:27AM

Not a great pic, but take a look through the haze a bit and imagine this coin after a quick dip.
I see signs of serious frost, and mirror like fields, as well as a limited number of hits. Anyone want to offer up an opinion as to whether this coin is a candidate for a quick dip? What might it grade? What product would be the best and safest?

RVDavis · September 7, 2006 12:27AM

No

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 12:32AM

No because?
You don't believe in dipping coins, or you don't believe the coin would be improved, or???

Steve27 · September 7, 2006 12:34AM

I doubt a dip would improve it, but MS70 might remove some of the haze.

RVDavis · September 7, 2006 12:37AM

<< No because?
You don't believe in dipping coins, or you don't believe the coin would be improved, or??? >>

Because I do not believe in dipping coins. I also don't believe in cosmetic surgery, hair implants, hair dye or any of the other things we humans have come up with to deny aging. I like the look of a coin that has not been altered. If the coins history gives it PVC spots, ugly haze or anything else that is what happened to the coin. So be it.

Rick

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 12:41AM

Okay,
now I will admit my ignorance... I have never dipped a coin, and don't own anything that one would consider a 'dip'. But, looking at this coin, I see a lot of potential mirror hidden behind the haze. So, someone educate me. What is the difference between the various coin dips or cleaners. Are some considered terrible for coins, while others are safe and not considered harsh? What are the brands and how would they affect this coin, potentially?

holeinone1972 · September 7, 2006 12:41AM

<< 

<< No because?
You don't believe in dipping coins, or you don't believe the coin would be improved, or??? >>

Because I do not believe in dipping coins. I also don't believe in cosmetic surgery, hair implants, hair dye or any of the other things we humans have come up with to deny aging. I like the look of a coin that has not been altered. If the coins history gives it PVC spots, ugly haze or anything else that is what happened to the coin. So be it.

Rick >>

So does that include, dentistry, blood transfusuions, vaccines, medicine. Kind of a broad brush there. Maybe we should all die in our early thirties, that would take care of the social security issue.

It is your coin, dip it if you want, but ask yourself why are you dipping it? Is it to make it prettier? Is it to increase its value? What do you intend to do with the coin keep it? Slab it? Sell it?

You are going to have to decide for yourself, beacuase opinions are like a.sholes, everyone's got one, including me. LOl

Steve27 · September 7, 2006 12:42AM

"If the coins history gives it PVC spots..."

How sad is it that someone will leave ongoing damage to a coin, to protect its "originality."

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 12:51AM

I am not going to sell this coin. The question for me is partially acedemic. It is a 'junk' morgan to some extent (it was part of a roll I bought cheap) and it shows some potential for having mirrored fields, and nice frost, but has haze covering it. I love mirrored morgans. After seeing some pics from Russ showing hazy coins after a dipping... I wondered what product would be the right one, and how it would effect the coin.
I am not going to slab it or sell it. I am not trying to increase its grade or value. I AM hoping I can get nice mirrors.
So, anyone care to share what products do what for my education?

RVDavis · September 7, 2006 12:54AM

<< 

<< 

<< No because?
You don't believe in dipping coins, or you don't believe the coin would be improved, or??? >>

Because I do not believe in dipping coins. I also don't believe in cosmetic surgery, hair implants, hair dye or any of the other things we humans have come up with to deny aging. I like the look of a coin that has not been altered. If the coins history gives it PVC spots, ugly haze or anything else that is what happened to the coin. So be it.

Rick >>

So does that include, dentistry, blood transfusuions, vaccines, medicine. Kind of a broad brush there. Maybe we should all die in our early thirties, that would take care of the social security issue.

It is your coin, dip it if you want, but ask yourself why are you dipping it? Is it to make it prettier? Is it to increase its value? What do you intend to do with the coin keep it? Slab it? Sell it?

You are going to have to decide for yourself, beacuase opinions are like a.sholes, everyone's got one, including me. LOl >>

I actually was in that exact conversation last night. Where do you draw the line? I draw the line at reducing suffering. My personal choice, everyone has their own opinions. I dont' refinish old furniture because I like the appearance things acquire with age. I have a set of 18th century science texts; the bindings are falling apart but I will not have them rebound. If my grand-daughter is ill, I am happy to take her to the best physician I can find and do everything I can to make her well. I travel a lot, I am happy to fly to the UK in eight hours instead of spending 30 or 45 days in a sailing ship because, unless I can walk, any sort of locomotion is artificial. I donate to Oxfam to feed hungry people. While human suffering, including famine, are natural events there is no reason to abandon humans to that sort of suffering because it is natural. In my hobbies, I prefer original to manipulated.

Rick

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 12:57AM

Okay,
let's assume this MORGAN is suffering and needs that suffering reduced...
What products would you use, why, and what may be the results?

(yes, I'd love to get on track here and talk about coins!)

and speaking of original vs manipulated... what if the haze was introduced from sitting in the house of a smoker for a decade or two... is that natural, or manipulated? So, would removing the results of manipulation be manipulation, or would it be returning to natural and original form?

Steve27 · September 7, 2006 1:00AM

MS70

guitarwes · September 7, 2006 1:01AM

would be nice without all that haze on it. 63/64 PL. I think cheek scuffs are exaggerated by the position that the picture was taken, and would lood sharp in hand!
looks like a 8/7 VAM with 7 crossbar through on second 8. Nice strike, typical for early s mints!

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 1:03AM

My understanding of MS70, from reading an ad on ebay for it, is that it is not a dip, but you wipe it on with a q tip. That sounds bad...
Is this true? It was described more as a solvent for glue, gunk, etc.
How is it different from Jewel Luster (E Z Est)

DennisH · September 7, 2006 1:04AM

I'd dip it because it would make the coin more attractive, and I prefer attractive coins.

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 1:05AM

<< would be nice without all that haze on it. 63/64 PL. I think cheek scuffs are exaggerated by the position that the picture was taken, and would lood sharp in hand!
looks like a 8/7 VAM with 7 crossbar through on second 8. Nice strike, typical for early s mints! >>

How is that VAM identified? I don't see anything. Is it a common VAM?

Yes, the pic does exaggerate the scuffs. They are barely noticable in hand. I think it an MS64, likely PL.

HighRelief · September 7, 2006 1:10AM

Send the coin to NCS and have the pros do it, if you are compelled to have it cleaned up.

guitarwes · September 7, 2006 1:12AM

looks like there is a possible 7 crossbar in the second 8, bottom of the top loop, and the mintmark is slightly left. Check out VAMWORLD.com and see if any of your Morgans compare with their VAMS. They have some pretty good pics to compare with. As far as the rarity, can't help you there, just started VAMMING a little while ago. Don't know all of the 3,000+ varities yet, but working on it

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 1:17AM

<< Send the coin to NCS and have the pros do it, if you are compelled to have it cleaned up. >>

I can't imagine this coin being worth the fee (I think the fee would exceed the value of the coin).
But, I'd still like to see those mirrors come out...

Steve27 · September 7, 2006 1:23AM

"How is it different from Jewel Luster (E Z Est) "

Jewel Luster and other dips are mild acids; they remove toning. MS70, according to their label, is an industrial strength coin brightener. Just soak the coin in it, and only use a Q-tip afterwards if required.

AlixTCat · September 7, 2006 1:25AM

7 seconds in eZest coin cleaner will bring out the mirrors and NOT destroy the luster. It works great. Just make sure not to exceed 7 seconds and rinse with distilled water thoroughly.
I know lots of people are against any dipping. However, some coins beg for a dipping. This coin has no beautiful toning. This coin is covered by a haze. This coin could benefit from a quick dip in eZest. You can get eZest Here.

Happy dipping to you!

Jonathan

I do not advocate dipping coins with "original skins" that are protecting the coin. However, I do advocate dipping for coins that otherwise, without the haze, woudl be beautiful coins.

dlimb2 · September 7, 2006 1:26AM

Just give it a quick dip in Jewel Luster and rinse with distilled water and make sure you rise it well....should not hurt it for a second...take a hair dryer and blow it dry.

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 1:32AM

What is the reason for using distilled water? Will tap water do, or is there some magic in distilled water?

keets · September 7, 2006 1:43AM

the coin looks to me like it was already dipped with either poor technique or poor results, unless it's just a bad image. i base that opinion on the haze over the entire coin and the begining of peripheral tone.

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 1:52AM

<< the coin looks to me like it was already dipped with either poor technique or poor results, unless it's just a bad image. i base that opinion on the haze over the entire coin and the begining of peripheral tone. >>

It's entirely possible... isn't it a safe assumption that a LOT of lower value (and higher) morgans have been dipped over the decades (some well, some not).

Can anyone answer me regarding the value of distilled water as a rinse as opposed to tap? I'm curious on that one.

seanq · September 7, 2006 2:05AM

<< 
Can anyone answer me regarding the value of distilled water as a rinse as opposed to tap? I'm curious on that one. >>

No mineral contaminates, no fluoride, and no chlorine in distilled water. Tap water could have any or all of these whether from a well or municipally supplied.

Sean Reynolds

guitarwes · September 7, 2006 2:07AM

I believe distilled water will rinse better and not have any minerals in it to be deposited on the coins surface. Like hard water stains on the faucet or tub!

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 2:14AM

Good answer. Thanks.

coindeuce · September 7, 2006 2:52AM

No. It's friggin' common as dirt '81-S Morgan. Unless the coin merits a technical grade already of MS-66 or better already, you're wasting your time and ruining an ORIGINAL mint state coin. Leave it alone.

notwilight · September 7, 2006 2:57AM

<< No. It's friggin' common as dirt '81-S Morgan. Unless the coin merits a technical grade already of MS-66 or better already, you're wasting your time and ruining an ORIGINAL mint state coin. Leave it alone. >>

"Ruining" is a strong word that apparently most people don't agree with. Do you want to go into detail? --Jerry

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 2:57AM

<< No. It's friggin' common as dirt '81-S Morgan. Unless the coin merits a technical grade already of MS-66 or better already, you're wasting your time and ruining an ORIGINAL mint state coin. Leave it alone. >>

That's part of the issue: it is common as dirt, and not nice looking. So, why not see what the potential is by dipping it? Perhaps then it is a nice MS64PL common as dirt 81-S instead of a hazy one.
And again, how many examples have we seen (one of Russ' comes to mind) where a generic ugly takes a bath and its beauty then shines through.

coindeuce · September 7, 2006 3:05AM

What keets said. He's a better judge of the images offered than I am. It could very well have been previously dipped. Where jewelluster is involved, more is NOT better.

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 3:13AM

Well, I've never dipped before... and don't think I would on anything valuable, but this coin strikes me as a perfect test ground. I ordered some EZest off of ebay. When it comes this thing is going in for 7 seconds. Then a wash (distilled, not tap). I'll pic and post. If it comes out nicer, cool. If not, I don't think I have rocked the numistmatic world through the negative impact to a mediocre and poor eye appeal 81-S.
Results in about a week I suppose!

19Lyds · September 7, 2006 3:30AM

Wow! 7 seconds could be an eternity. My feeling is that a 1 second bath will clean it up. If that doesn't work then maybe 1 second more. If that still doesn't work then just rinse and be happy with what you got!

7 seconds is far too long IMO.

lkenefic · September 7, 2006 3:44AM

I agree with keets and others...looks like it may have already been dippd at some point.

About PVC damage...If I see this I have no qualms about using acetone to remove it. Leo

Tonedbuff · September 7, 2006 3:50AM

Okay then, just a second or two.

keets · September 7, 2006 4:21AM

while you're waiting for the E-Z-Est to arrive dip the Morgan in acetone which may remove the haze and preclude anything further. if that fails, follow this tried and true formula:

i use glass bowls from K-Mart(big enough to hold about eight ounces of liquid), acetone, distilled water, 91% alcohol, E-Z-Est, Canned air for cleaning electronics and cloth diapers. the list of ingredients may seem obsessive, but the key is to remove contaminants and to not risk re-toning or re-contaminating the coins you dip.

Bowl 1. 50% Distilled water and 50% E-Z-Est. Hold the coin by the edges and swirl it for no more than five seconds.
Bowl 2. 91% alcohol to rinse/nuetralize the dip. At least one full minute, shifting you fingers so nothing remains in the reeding.
Bowl 3. Distilled water rinse for one full minute, shifting you fingers so nothing remains in the reeding.
Bowl 4. Distilled water rinse for one full minute, shifting you fingers so nothing remains in the reeding.
Bowl 5. Acetone rinse for one full minute, shifting you fingers so nothing remains in the reeding.
Bowl 6. Acetone rinse for one full minute, shifting you fingers so nothing remains in the reeding.

after Bowl 6 hold the coin about 2-4 inches away from the canned air and blow it dry. it's important not to agitate the can which will result in droplets being sprayed which will harm the coin. also, try to avoid breathing on it. after you're satisfied that it's dry place the coin on a sterile diaper, flip the diaper over so it's covered and place it where it won't be disturbed. i go back and turn the coins over every day for about a week, checking to be sure no tone has started from an improper rinse/dip. after that it's safe to place in a Safety Flip, folder or send for grading.

remember to dispose of the used chemicals in a safe way, not down the sink drain.

Frankcoins · September 7, 2006 4:28AM

<< 
If the coins history gives it PVC spots, ugly haze or anything else that is what happened to the coin. So be it.

Rick >>

Sad that a misguided person would advocate leaving someting on a coin that will eventually destroy it rather
than taking action to preserve it for future collectors.

Frankcoins · September 7, 2006 4:32AM

<< "How is it different from Jewel Luster (E Z Est) "

Jewel Luster and other dips are mild acids; they remove toning. MS70, according to their label, is an industrial strength coin brightener. Just soak the coin in it, and only use a Q-tip afterwards if required. >>

MS70 is the OPPOSITE of acid, it is strongly basic, like lye soap, thus its "slippery" feeling.

19Lyds · September 7, 2006 5:02AM

Wow Keets! Thats quite a recipe.

What I do is dip the coin in EZEst and then thoroughly rinse under hot running water for about 20 seconds.
After that its off to a 93% alcohol rinse with constant motion.
Then I place it on a soft cloth and just cover one surface with the cloth, flip the coin then cover the other side then let it set for a few minutes.
Then into a 2x2 flip once I am sure all the alcohol has evaporated.

I tried using dip methods for rinses but became way too concerned after the 1st coin went through covered in dip. Decided to just stick with the running water. Distilled water is probably a good idea but then your stuck with having multiple dip rinses.

I have not encountered any problems with my methods so far and have used it for better than 20 years.

And no I'm not a doctor and no I do not have a problem (obviously) with dipping a coin. I would never dip a toned though. Too risky.

TorinoCobra71 · September 7, 2006 5:04AM

<< I'd dip it because it would make the coin more attractive, and I prefer attractive coins. >>

Dennis -

I concur, but it is a COMMON date Morgan. Only DIP and SUBMIT if you paid little money for it..............

TorinoCobra71

keets · September 7, 2006 6:48AM

hey Lee, that's a basic set-up that another member suggested, i just refined it some to ensure that it's absolutely foolproof for me. tap water is OK, i guess, but there's just something about chlorine and stuff like lime, iron, etc. which cause me to shy away from taking chances, so i use the distilled water. i suppose that i probably go a bit overboard, that's just the OCD in me!!!

also, i rarely dip anything but Proof/SMS Jefferson Nickels to remove haze, PVC, mild tone spotting and to lessen the appearance of carbon spots on some of the 1938-1942 issues. even when i think a coin is a good candidate and will benefit from a dip, it usually takes me awhile to convince myself to do it.

Tonedbuff · September 15, 2006 2:07PM

Here is the same coin, after a 2 second dip...

You may recall the original was cloudy...

Now, the pics are not great... no question. strangely, the obverse may look worse (certainly no better) but the reverse looks much nicer.
On the whole, I don't know about it. I can see the value of dipping to remove hazy surfaces... if you have nice surfaces underneath. these are just dinged up surfaces on an MS62 or 63 coin... not much to improve. I agree with whomever said this one may have already been overdipped at some point. The surfaces have issues... now they are shiny and have issues.

RVDavis · September 15, 2006 11:26PM

I have been traveling and just caught up with this thread. I am curious, are you happy you dipped the coin? I agree with your assesment of the dipped coin's appearance.

Rick

Tonedbuff · September 16, 2006 6:40AM

It looks nicer in the hand, but it would not affect the grade positively or negatively. The obverse in some ways looks worse, as it lost its frost... the reverse however looks better. All that milky covering was hiding some of the bag marks too...
Interesting experiment, not worth repeating. I'm neutral on the whole thing.

keez · September 16, 2006 6:49AM

I liked the way it looked originally.

Is this morgan a candidate for a quick dip?-RSESULTS ARE IN!

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