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so, why is it SOOOOO important to compare slabing co's?
dorkkarl
Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
i mean, why do you care if ngc is 2nd tier & pcgs is 3d tier & anacs is 29th tier, or whatever the wacky rankings are that are made? does'nt the coin stuck in the slab count for anything?
now, i can understand the need to spell out worthless brands like acg, ntc, whatever, since they can't even guarantee a coin's authenticity. i appreciate the ability of a slabing co. to authenticate coins, but is ngc better then anacs, or pcgs better then icg in that regard?
& another question, if the exact same coin costs more in a particular brand vs. another, why in the he11 would you pay more for the more expensive brand??? is'nt that kinda dumb? i mean, if you cracked out two coins, 1 from each of the leading brand, & you can NOT tell them apart, WHY would you pay more just because one brand has an extra letter in it's name???
just wondering i guess . . . . . . .
K S
now, i can understand the need to spell out worthless brands like acg, ntc, whatever, since they can't even guarantee a coin's authenticity. i appreciate the ability of a slabing co. to authenticate coins, but is ngc better then anacs, or pcgs better then icg in that regard?
& another question, if the exact same coin costs more in a particular brand vs. another, why in the he11 would you pay more for the more expensive brand??? is'nt that kinda dumb? i mean, if you cracked out two coins, 1 from each of the leading brand, & you can NOT tell them apart, WHY would you pay more just because one brand has an extra letter in it's name???
just wondering i guess . . . . . . .
K S
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1) Can't put a NGC graded coin in the registry here
2) Have to convince the world & myself that spending $1000 for a modern proof in a PCGS slab really is a numismatic thing and a good investment
3) I like coke and detest pepsi
4) Even though my coin is unattractive, by gum its in the #1 slab so its worth what I overpaid for it (I hope anyway)
I am sure there are many more. I can only say that I couldn't tell you what slab 90% of the coins I look at are in when I go to a show. Without a doubt the most non-numismatic comment (and dumbest) I read on these forums is when someone says they will only buy coins in XYZ holders.
-Amanda
I'm a YN working on a type set!
My Buffalo Nickel Website Home of the Quirky Buffaloes Collection!
Proud member of the CUFYNA
K S
<< <i>4) Even though my coin is unattractive, by gum its in the #1 slab so its worth what I overpaid for it (I hope anyway)
>>
Heh.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
It's important to many people because they are relying on someone else to evaluate the coins that they contemplate purchasing. It's really no different than comparing safety records of airlines before buying a ticket. When you trust your fate to someone else, you want to trust the right person.
Of course it would be better if everyone learned how to grade for themself, but that's not happening anytime soon.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>why do you care if ngc is 2nd tier & pcgs is 3d tier & anacs is 29th tier
It's important to many people because they are relying on someone else to evaluate the coins that they contemplate purchasing. It's really no different than comparing safety records of airlines before buying a ticket. >>
i would assume all airlines report safety based on a single standard. slabing co's have made it clear that they grade according to THEIR OWN respective standards. so why would it make sense to compare apples to oranges?
i mean, if "airline a" has 5 fatalities per 100, & "airline b" has 20 fatalities per 100, that's making a like comparison, assuming we all agree what a fatality is. it's a fair comparison.
but to compare "grading co a's" "ms-65" to "grading co. b's" seems silly, since they grade on different standards.
or am i misundertstanding about grading standards?
also, regarding the airline fatality, there's no exceptions, no trends. either the people died or they did'nt. whereas with grading, the FACT is that sometimes brand a sells for more, sometimes brand b does. it's ridiculous to state that "coins in brand b plastic are worth more"
K S
Except that they are. Which, BTW, provides a standard by which we can compare the services: the value of the plastic in the marketplace.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Karl, it's a fair assumption to say that PCGS sets the grading standard and the others follow. that's why most of the comparisons are vs. what PCGS >>
why can't it just as well be that ngc sets the standard, & pcgs tries to grade 1/2 pt lower? also, other then the pcgs forum, where do you see all these comparisions vs. pcgs being made?
K S
<< <i>also, other then the pcgs forum, where do you see all these comparisions vs. pcgs being made?
K S >>
Ever been to a coin show?
<< <i><< also, other then the pcgs forum, where do you see all these comparisions vs. pcgs being made?
K S >>
Ever been to a coin show? >>
yep, sure have. funny thing is, i sometimes see pcgs coins sell for more than identical ngc coins, bizarrely, i sometimes see some ngc coins sell for more then pcgs coins. even more amazingly, i've seen some unslabed coins sell for more than identical coins in both holders. i don't see how that supports the statement "coins are worth more in brand b plastic"
K S
<< <i>Gee, I think it's more important to compare coins myself.
-Amanda >>
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>
<< <i><< also, other then the pcgs forum, where do you see all these comparisions vs. pcgs being made?
K S >>
Ever been to a coin show? >>
yep, sure have. funny thing is, i sometimes see pcgs coins sell for more than identical ngc coins, bizarrely, i sometimes see some ngc coins sell for more then pcgs coins. even more amazingly, i've seen unslabed coins sell for identical coins in both holders. i don't see how that supports the statement "coins are worth more in brand b plastic"
K S >>
Yawn.
K S
<< <i>i mean, why do you care if ngc is 2nd tier & pcgs is 3d tier & anacs is 29th tier, or whatever the wacky rankings are that are made? does'nt the coin stuck in the slab count for anything? >>
Not in "Fantasy Coins!"
Ever play Fantasy Baseball, Fantasy Football, Survivor blah blah blah? The participants have no clue what players to pick. They use their hunches and their perception on who and what to pick. It is a game based on very limited observation only through the small tube (now known as the flat screen or plasma screen or whatever!)
This is "Fantasy Coins" Dorkkarl!
Heck, we now even have a "World Series of Coin Trading" (tm) that was set up by none other than PCGS (tm)!
A few extra (tm) (tm) (tm) (tm) (tm) (r) (r) (r) in case I left any out by mistake!!!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
i would think that airline "a" was way overdue for a crash.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i><< also, other then the pcgs forum, where do you see all these comparisions vs. pcgs being made?
K S >>
Ever been to a coin show? >>
yep, sure have. funny thing is, i sometimes see pcgs coins sell for more than identical ngc coins, bizarrely, i sometimes see some ngc coins sell for more then pcgs coins. even more amazingly, i've seen unslabed coins sell for identical coins in both holders. i don't see how that supports the statement "coins are worth more in brand b plastic"
K S >>
Yawn. >>
The man speaks the truth.
<< <i>At least for some folks, I firmly believe it is so that they can feel good about themselves for making the "right" choice. >>
This man also speaks the truth!
<< <i>DK - Plastic doesn't set a ceiling on prices but it does set a floor, and the floor tends to be higher for PCGS slabbed coins. Although the market's greater valuation of a PCGS grade isn't necessarily logical or desirable from a pure collector's perspective, it's certainly real. >>
interesting insight re the ceiling vs. floor thingy....
now, for the typical collector, is it "value" that's higher for pcgs, or "cost"?
K S
It really is good to have your voice of reason back on these boards Karl.
For a while there the Kool-Aid drinking lemmings were trying to take over with numbers and major major a$$kissing. It almost worked except for a few of us trying to insert common sense every now and then.
Remember folks- you are buying the coin inside the plastic not the plastic around the coin...
DK -
The short answer? For the typical collector, both are higher. (I think we can agree that you are not a "typical collector".)
The long answer is that "value" is something that we must determine for ourselves, and every collector will choose the items that offer him the best value for the given cost. I say "items", not coins, because to many collectors, a slabbed coin is not quite just a coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
TPGs have the power to change the intrinsic value of a coin. It's magic.
<< <i>now, for the typical collector, is it "value" that's higher for pcgs, or "cost"?
DK -
The short answer? For the typical collector, both are higher. (I think we can agree that you are not a "typical collector".)
The long answer is that "value" is something that we must determine for ourselves, and every collector will choose the items that offer him the best value for the given cost. I say "items", not coins, because to many collectors, a slabbed coin is not quite just a coin. >>
so if the exact same coin is valued higher in pcgs then ngc, but it also costs more, meaning it's profit potential is the same as the ngc coin, why is it better to pay more for the exact same coin???
seriously, i don't get it. it does'nt make sense to me to purport that a certain brand is "better" because it "costs more, but sells for more".
so i can pay $50 for <brand a> & sell it for $100, or i can pay $70 for the allegedly-better <brand b> & sell it for $120? how in the he11 does that make "brand b" the better brand?
ie if a certain brand of plastic adds both $20 in value AND cost, i don't see that that makes it the better brand
K S
DK - The PCGS brand is "better" in the sense that it commands a bigger price in the marketplace. From other perspectives, it may not be better.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Coinguy1 has posted his thoughts on this subject quite a few times. Sorry I don't have a link, but maybe he'll chime in. As I recall, he urges collectors who focus on the potential sales price of a coin in PCGS plastic (which many view as the indicator of value) to consider the other side of the equation.
<< <i>DK - The PCGS brand is "better" in the sense that it commands a bigger price in the marketplace. From other perspectives, it may not be better. >>
so.... why isn't the "bigger profit" promoted, rather then the "bigger price"? is it all a big marketing conspiracy?
<< <i>it is important that collectors know that there can be price differences. >>
are price differences due to the coins or the pla$tic?
K S
<< <i>
<< <i>DK - The PCGS brand is "better" in the sense that it commands a bigger price in the marketplace. From other perspectives, it may not be better. >>
so.... why isn't the "bigger profit" promoted, rather then the "bigger price"? is it all a big marketing conspiracy?
<< <i>it is important that collectors know that there can be price differences. >>
are price differences due to the coins or the pla$tic?
K S >>
Can I just cut to the chase? Karl thinks people should buy the COIN, not the PLA$TIC. There - I saved everyone 412 additional posts.
this is an imagined fantasy scenario, being able to compare the exact same coin simultaneously in a PCGS and NGC holder, that's at the core of your almost phobic rant. probably more collectors do actually buy the coin than you suspect, probably more collectors do really know how to grade than you suspect. the point you seem stuck on is that no individual coin is ever graded exactly the same by whatever the number of graders looking at it might be. this simple fact is then complicated because we have guides that are generally used to provide what MrEureka so correctly stated as a floor price. in the end for many it comes down to a trust issue, and if you've been paying attention to many of the hottest discussion topics for the at least the past nine months it should be clear that NGC's trustworthiness has been eroding.
that trustworthiness is, in a nutshell, what causes the differences in the pricing for a same grade, same date/MM, same variety issue, your supposed same coin. if a coin in a PCGS PR66 holder were viewed in(for example) an ACG PR66 holder what do you think the general collecting public would think?? forget about all the hypothetical bullshit for a second and get real!!!!! most collectors would trust the PCGS holder more than the ACG holder------READ: opinion. many of us, you included, would certainly inspect the coin in either holder and consider buying either based on our expience and Numismatic skill, but i doubt any of us would willingly pay a premium for the ACG coin, though i feel confident there are exceptions to that generality.
-----please be advised that i only chose ACG because i understand that's it's an extreme example at the end of the spectrum opposite of PCGS. like you, Karl, i consider the coin first and foremost.
K S
K S
in all honesty i'd have to have you point me to where that's been my opinion. while the majority of my collection is in PCGS holders it's for three primary reasons:
1. i like the holder design for various reasons which aren't really important.
2. for participation in the Registry Set concept at the PCGS web-site.
3. i do believe it provides me with the best value protection and appreciation from the standpoint of what the service quality provides.
with that said, i buy in all holders and raw with regularity and base my "buying" price on the coin quality. sometimes i make poor judgements but just as often i make wise choices and move forward with my collection. the best purchases i've made to date have been with raw coins, Modern and Classic issues. i find that personally there seems to be more of a problem selling my coins in the off-brand holders than in PCGS and NGC holders, a simple fact that gets back to collector/dealer trust. more than a few times i've been told that if such and such a coin was in such and such a holder i'd buy it. it always sounds to me like the buyer either doen't really know how to grade or isn't sure they can re-sell the coin at a profit in the current holder. another trust issue down the line.
you would probably think me foolish if i related some stories about coins i've bought and had encapsulated by PCGS with an apparent loss of money if judged by the "insert price" you'd be seeing, but that how i collect. it's about the coins, man, not the plastic and the insert!!!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Well, 'cause then I'll know where to send my raw cherry picks for slabbin'.
1. I cherry pick Morgan VAM's and in order to sell them, I slab 'em.
2. If Brand X slab sells for good money but, they will not attribute the VAM.....I send it to Brand Y and have it VAM'd, then flip.
3. If Brands X & Y will both do the job, then the company that will grade & attribute in a timely manner will get the contract.
4. Knowing the strengths/weaknesses of Co.'s in this hobby might save money/time/hassle when ya play ........
disclaimer: this reply was only for entertainment purposes, if used as advice.......I cannot be held liable.
Manuel
SM1 calls me a troublemaker....
--------------------------------------------
Sunday August 19, 2007 9:17AM
A mentor awarded " YOU SUCK!!"
<< <i>I'd also like to see average prices realized for each TPG mapped out over time. >>
would'nt you be better informed to see average PROFITS realized for each tpg mapped out? assuming your someone who sells coins of course
K S