Where are all the forum Attorneys when we need them??
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can't one of you guys formulate a logical way that the name of a known Coin Doctor can be divulged in such a way as to not pose a threat to anyone's livelihood?? This is absolutely ridiculous anymore. My way is simple-------------a PM chain-letter which is copied by the recipient and deleted from the server after being passed along. We would each know who the "bad guys" are after sharing a message with a "good guy" on each end of the communication.
Al H.
Al H.
0
Comments
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Edited to add: The foregoing message is intended solely as a contribution to the topic under discussion and should not be construed as providing, or as an offer to provide, legal advice.
Russ, NCNE
Get a yahoo mail ID, get an ALT ID, and post the info.
<< <i>And what good would knowing the names of the major coin doctors do us as collectors? The answer is that the names would do none of us any good, because none of us are buying coins from them. They don't sell directly to the average collector.
Russ, NCNE >>
So, there is really nothing that can be done anyway.
Literally OBSERVE the person first hand, without violating any laws, including his "reasonable expectations of privacy", etc. Then, report FACTUALLY what you witnessed.
Don't talk about what you think, believe, guess or even heard (from the person himself or from someone else) - that's not proof. Don't make accusations or jump to conclusions - stick with FACTS.
A major part of the problem with reporting "coin doctors" is lack of FACTS and direct evidence. Disclosing what you heard, but didn't see, and/or making unsubstantiated accusations/claims can lead to problems.
Edited to add: If you do the above, you could of course, still get sued. However, the palintiff would be making even more trouble for himself and would likely lose the suit, as well as suffer a deserved public hit to his reputation/image/business.
<< <i>And what good would knowing the names of the major coin doctors do us as collectors? The answer is that the names would do none of us any good, because none of us are buying coins from them. They don't sell directly to the average collector.
Russ, NCNE >>
I actually agree with Russ on this subject. Furthermore, nobody will directly tell you who is and who is not a coin doctor. It's up to you to figure out who the biggest offenders are and how to stay away from their "work".
Also, don't assume that somebody is a coin doctor by listening to rumors. Persons should be considered guilty only when you have personally seen them committing the offense or have seen direct evidence proving their guilt.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>And what good would knowing the names of the major coin doctors do us as collectors? The answer is that the names would do none of us any good, because none of us are buying coins from them. They don't sell directly to the average collector.
Russ, NCNE >>
I actually agree with Russ on this subject. Furthermore, nobody will directly tell you who is and who is not a coin doctor. It's up to you to figure out who the biggest offenders are and how to stay away from their "work". >>
Or not buy toned stuff unless you are exactly sure where it originated from.
it would help greatly to know their identities. look at it like this-----if i knew that Russ was a coin doctor i could pay attention to who Russ was selling to and buying from. avoiding those ends of the equation would be a good thing.
Don't forget the color-free material too, which has also often been messed with in one way or another.
<< <i><<Or not buy toned stuff unless you are exactly sure where it originated from>>
Don't forget the color-free material too, which has also often been messed with in one way or another. >>
Are you referring to tooling???
<< <i>
<< <i><<Or not buy toned stuff unless you are exactly sure where it originated from>>
Don't forget the color-free material too, which has also often been messed with in one way or another. >>
Are you referring to tooling??? >>
Doctoring goes much farther than tooling or artificially toning. In many cases, white coins have been more severely doctored than toned coins. Remember the "JDLR" saying...if the coin "just doesn't look right", then don't buy it.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>And what good would knowing the names of the major coin doctors do us as collectors?
it would help greatly to know their identities. look at it like this-----if i knew that Russ was a coin doctor i could pay attention to who Russ was selling to and buying from. avoiding those ends of the equation would be a good thing. >>
Again, the major coin doctors do not sell directly to the average collector. They sell in to the wholesale channel, so knowing who they are will not do us any good. They sell behind the scenes so how, exactly, are you going to "pay attention" to who is purchasing their product?
Russ, NCNE
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
again, by knowing who they are, are you dense or what???
<< <i>They sell behind the scenes so how, exactly, are you going to "pay attention" to who is purchasing their product?
again, by knowing who they are, are you dense or what??? >>
Graet, you know who they are, you're going to somehow track their every transaction from behind your keyboard?
If I know for a fact that Frankie 'Four Fingers' rolls back the odometer on any GM product that comes through his wholesale lot, how does that help me buy my next Buick? If a dealer is shady enough to buy his stock from Frankie 'Four Fingers', can I really expect him to be honest when I ask him where he got that Regal with 38,000 miles on it? Others have already told you that following Frankie 'Four Fingers' around can be hazardous to your health, so just how do you intend to keep tabs on his every transaction?
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>They sell behind the scenes so how, exactly, are you going to "pay attention" to who is purchasing their product?
again, by knowing who they are, are you dense or what??? >>
Obviously, you're the one who has a density problem, Keets. Behind the scenes is, well, the opposite of out in the open. Hidden, as in we aren't privy to it, and have no opportunity to witness it. That clear it up for you?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>They sell behind the scenes so how, exactly, are you going to "pay attention" to who is purchasing their product?
again, by knowing who they are, are you dense or what??? >>
Obviously, you're the one who has a density problem, Keets. Behind the scenes is, well, the opposite of out in the open. Hidden, as in we aren't privy to it, and have no opportunity to witness it. That clear it up for you?
Russ, NCNE >>
So, if it's behind the scenes, how does the big dealer know who they are as claimed??? Or is that just some more of the big dealers smoke and mirrors???
Keep in mind I am not giving legal advice to anyone; am not entering into any attorney client relationship with anyone; am not soliciting anyone; and am simply answering a question posed by Keets. For those who are curious, look up California Civil Code Section 47 and case law citations to that statute.
OK, I have the CDN “2006 Numismatic Dealer Directory” in front of me (which, by the way, has two full-page ads for Smythe on pages 17 and 135). What’s the next step?
<< <i>I'm not an attorney, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. So. In light of my newfound profound intelligence I will reveal the way to post who coin doctors.
Get a yahoo mail ID, get an ALT ID, and post the info. >>
So, what's the deal with the Peace Dollar. You know, everybody basically forgot about it until the MOC episode and someone resurrected the thread you started.
Jerry
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm not an attorney, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. So. In light of my newfound profound intelligence I will reveal the way to post who coin doctors.
Get a yahoo mail ID, get an ALT ID, and post the info. >>
So, what's the deal with the Peace Dollar. You know, everybody basically forgot about it until the MOC episode and someone resurrected the thread you started.
Jerry >>
Go back and read. Everything I know about it is in the thread.
<< <i>I'm not an attorney, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. So. In light of my newfound profound intelligence I will reveal the way to post who coin doctors.
Get a yahoo mail ID, get an ALT ID, and post the info. >>
but use your friend's laptop!!!
(those pesky IP addresses you know...)
Russ, be realistic. in your imagined scenario these guys are never "in the open" while most everyone who comes here and claims knowledge of their activities states clearly that many of the worst offenders are well known. i take that to mean that they can be found at all the major shows. to that end we generally hear about the biggest transgressions either during or immediately following a major show, most often a show on the west coast. my premise is simple and i'll again use you as the example-----if i'm told that Russ is a coin doctor it's simple enough at a major show to have your identity pointed out to me. to that end, your picture has been on this forum and i feel certain i could pick you out of a lineup easy enough!!!
all speculation aside, i stand firm in my belief that knowing who these guys are is the better option than simply knowing they exist.
The bigger problem is that once the mud starts slinging everyone gets wet and that will be bad for business. It is easy enough to level accusations. Proof is something else. How easy would it be for some of the good ole boy doctors to band together and finger someone they don't like? Very easy. Maybe dummy up some coins and even plant them and take photos and send them off to the magazines. That sets off a feud with politics and allies, with the truth never any closer.
The hobby is very much a good ole boys (and girls) club. That is why they don't out each other. A snitch is a much worse person than a doc. The snitch will probably never be able to do business again, the doc will be back next week. No one wants to kill the goose. Mind your business and watch your back.
Maybe what you should do Keets is go to a show or shows, find out who they are and then post there names. Then you won't have to keep prodding the members here to do it, do it yourself if it's so important to you. Then it will be done to your satisfaction.
You seem to be passionate about the subject, do it yourself, post the names and stop asking for other members to stick their necks out to getting sued.
The grading services are already well aware of who these people are.
<< <i>The grading services are already well aware of who these people are. >>
Perhaps you could tell us a little about what the grading services do when they become aware of these people. There are a few people I can think of who are at every show making a killing from recoloring coins, removing spots, etc, etc. They all hang out with the "big boys" with seeming impunity. If I know who they are it is difficult to believe that the grading services don't, yet they appear to be welcomed with open arms by everyone.
allen stockton
happy?
K S
Now there's a well kept secret..
I say we put all coin dealers on a big level, and lower them into a large tub of water... if they are not a coin doctor, they will drown, if they are a coin doctor... Well, we get rid of all the coin doctors.
Why is it considered defamation to mention the name of someone you believe to be or know to be a coin doctor when there is nothing illegal about cleaning and/or coloring a coin?
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
The bottom line is ethics and there are no formal rules about coin collecting. The golden (sometimes slightly bluish, redish) rule is buyer beware.
<< <i>Where are all the forum Attorneys when we need them?? >>
Last I checked, they were in the Open Forum arguing with Iwog.
IIRC, he advertises in The Numismatist for his services.
How about someone who hides in the shadows?