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Did PCGS mess up on this label? (Kennedy 1966 DDO)
TAClough
Posts: 1,598 ✭
Should this label have stated that it is a SMS? The coin number is for a 1966 SMS but the label doesn't say SMS.
Teletrade 1966 DDO Kennedy PCGS MS67
Edited to add (kennedy 1966 DDO) to title.
Teletrade 1966 DDO Kennedy PCGS MS67
Edited to add (kennedy 1966 DDO) to title.
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<< <i>Teletrade also messed up. They say NGC. >>
Not anywhere I see. It says PCGS in the title.
However, they do refer you to another auction coming up where an NGC coin is offered.
Just wondering.
6846 is the PCGS number for 1966 SMS Kennedy.
The "E" means it was graded as an error. PCGS does this with some errors that they do not recognize as varieties. Personally I think this is all misleading.
While errors and varieties are similar in many ways, their definitions are not identical. Using them interchangeably leads to a lot of confusion. At PCGS a 1955 double die penny is graded as a variety (while it is a mint error) and then the 1966 double die Kennedy is graded as an error (which it is). Further complicating this is the fact that some varieties (I can't think of one right now) are graded as errors (because PCGS does not recognize them as varieties).
Again, a variety, a purposeful change to the working hub, should not be called an error.
And, Mint errors, mistakes that were made and not caught, should not be called varieties. Technically they are errors, some call these errors varieties, but I think it would all be a lot easier to understand if we used one definition for one and the other for the other....period.
<< <i>PCGS really messed this one up.....and someone paid $230 for a $60 coin (really about a $30 coin). This is a 1966 SMS Kennedy...not a doubled die! >>
The SMS FS-013.8 in PCGS MS67 certainly is not only a $60 or $30 coin. The price realized in this auction seems about right.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Well... keep in mind the only DDO for this year is the SMS coin so although it is omitted from the insert, it must be an SMS. >>
I actually have a few low grade non sms coin that have the same DDO as the sms. I am not sure it is the same exact strongest doubling, as there are a few different DDOs for this date, but it certainly does occur in the Bus. Strike.
As to the original thread ? it obviously is a mistake as the coin is an sms. Someone may have thought it wasn't though as the price is a touch high for a SMS DDO in MS67...but if the coin was a Bus. strike as 67 alone would be about double or triple that price.
morris <><
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Yes. PCGS screws this up ALL the time & Teletrade is to stupid to correct it in their title/description.
"Well... keep in mind the only DDO for this year is the SMS coin so although it is omitted from the insert, it must be an SMS."
Not correct Pat. CONECA alone lists 35 different DDO's for 1966 Kennedy's. It's not even the only Cherrypicker DDO - i.e. DDO#5 is ALSO a Cherrypicker & NOT an SMS.
To confuse matters further, FS-013.8 is cross-referenced with CONECA DDO#5 AND #13! Plus, the older version of the CPG list FS-013.8 as ONLY a business strike coin. The thing is that the SMS version is so close that the grading services just lump ALL coins that look like FS-013.8 in one group (as far as the variety is concerned) but have normally at least differentiated between the SMS & business strikes. Yes, it's confusing but there are minute differences in the doubling on each relative to the other.
To EVEN FURTHER complicate things, the NEW CPG now lists FS-013.8 as ONLY a business strike (like the previous version but as I said, they were so close the TPG's just called it that too) and lists the NEW FS# as FS-50-1966-101 (CONECA Die #5 - old FS-013.8 - 1966 Bus Strike 50c) but lists the SMS DDO most closely related to it as FS-50-1966-103.
Summary:
CONECA Die#5, Business Strike, FS-013.8 (now FS-50-1966-101):
Strong spread on IN GOD WE TRUST, designer's initials, entire profile, eye, lower earlobe, and CW rotation on the last 6 of the date
CONECA Die#13, SMS, FS-013.8 (now FS-50-1966-103):
Strong spread on profile, eye, ear, side burn hair, designer's initials, and IN GOD WE TRUST, with triple spread on last T of TRUST, and with medium CW rotation on IB of LIBERTY, and medium CCW rotation on last 6 of date
The SMS FS-013.8 in PCGS MS67 certainly is not only a $60 or $30 coin. The price realized in this auction seems about right.
Russ, I think the price would be fine for a actual FS-013.8 PCGS MS67. The problem is, I don't think it is a FS-013.8. I have several of these double dies, and the doubling is very apparent at low mag. I could be wrong given that I am looking at a photo on a computer screen, but the LIZARDTECH images on Teletrade seem pretty clear and I don't see the doubling I would expect.
Further, while there are DD's that are not SMS coins. This is a SMS coin. The look of the coin is that of a SMS and I think PCGS got the number and grade correct.
The problems I see are;
1) I don't think the coin is a double die.
2) The coin is not clearly labeled as a SMS,
I think the coin is a 1966 SMS PCGS MS67 Kennedy and worth between $30-60.
<< <i>Russ, I think the price would be fine for a actual FS-013.8 PCGS MS67. The problem is, I don't think it is a FS-013.8. >>
Looking closer that the TT image, I think you may be right. It doesn't appear to display the strong doubling through the chin, lips, and nose that should appear on the FS-013.8.
Russ, NCNE