A lesson learned from my local coin shop
Lahcoin
Posts: 170
One day last week I decided to make a quick stop at a local coin shop to see if he had gotten any new busties in. Most of the time the visits are short, either I am zooming doing chores on the way home from work...or...he is busy filling his ebay orders. Coin chat is usually at a minimum. This time I mentioned the chatter that was here on the boards about the AT issues. I had mentioned about how coins were supposedly toned inside the slab. The discussion was a very condensed version and matter-of-fact like.
This is where I got a new(and disheartening) lesson in the coin game. I'm in and out of coins, with longer spans of out than in and each time in it's a new game with new lessons. Maybe some of you seasoned/skilled collectors are aware of this, but it was new to me what he did next.
When I'd mention about the in-slab toning, he raised his eyebrows and walked over to his safe. He comes back with a PCGS OGH slab(not a rattler) and hands it to me and asks what I think of it. I grabbed it, looked at the grade, check out the obverse, flipped it, checked out the reverse(no loupe). The coin was graded 63. I'd thought that the coin was easily a 64 or maybe 65 bagmark-wise. The luster seemed average, not dripping. Since I'm not familiar with that series as far as strike and luster, I still would have still bought the coin and paid high end 63 money, probably even low 64. It was a nice looking coin, but on the slab written in marker was NFS(not for sale).
He takes the slab from me. Then....THEN...he takes the slab and starts tapping it on the counter, with the full bottom edge of the slab hitting the counter. He taps with the force of someone tapping their spoon on a coffee cup just after they stirred it. He keeps on tapping until... POP....the slab fell apart into two clean pieces. My jaw hit the floor and a wave of disgust ran through me. He did mention that 'other' TPG slabs(older ones) could be split also. He also mention that just tapping alone will not make it split...there is a process before the tapping..some type of pretreatment.
After that he preceeded to give me a warning about just how ugly and dangerous the coin game can be and to be very, very careful, just as I am trying to do here to those who didn't know or YNs just starting out. Although I've always suspected that this stuff was going on--seeing is believing.
So, to all the youngin's out there -- and this can't be said enough -- DO YOUR HOMEWORK !!. Learn to grade, distinquish AT from NT and authenticate yourself. Don't let these games ruin the hobby for you as it did for me before in the past. Learn to out-flank the flankers with knowledge.
Now I'm jumping off my soapbox.
This is where I got a new(and disheartening) lesson in the coin game. I'm in and out of coins, with longer spans of out than in and each time in it's a new game with new lessons. Maybe some of you seasoned/skilled collectors are aware of this, but it was new to me what he did next.
When I'd mention about the in-slab toning, he raised his eyebrows and walked over to his safe. He comes back with a PCGS OGH slab(not a rattler) and hands it to me and asks what I think of it. I grabbed it, looked at the grade, check out the obverse, flipped it, checked out the reverse(no loupe). The coin was graded 63. I'd thought that the coin was easily a 64 or maybe 65 bagmark-wise. The luster seemed average, not dripping. Since I'm not familiar with that series as far as strike and luster, I still would have still bought the coin and paid high end 63 money, probably even low 64. It was a nice looking coin, but on the slab written in marker was NFS(not for sale).
He takes the slab from me. Then....THEN...he takes the slab and starts tapping it on the counter, with the full bottom edge of the slab hitting the counter. He taps with the force of someone tapping their spoon on a coffee cup just after they stirred it. He keeps on tapping until... POP....the slab fell apart into two clean pieces. My jaw hit the floor and a wave of disgust ran through me. He did mention that 'other' TPG slabs(older ones) could be split also. He also mention that just tapping alone will not make it split...there is a process before the tapping..some type of pretreatment.
After that he preceeded to give me a warning about just how ugly and dangerous the coin game can be and to be very, very careful, just as I am trying to do here to those who didn't know or YNs just starting out. Although I've always suspected that this stuff was going on--seeing is believing.
So, to all the youngin's out there -- and this can't be said enough -- DO YOUR HOMEWORK !!. Learn to grade, distinquish AT from NT and authenticate yourself. Don't let these games ruin the hobby for you as it did for me before in the past. Learn to out-flank the flankers with knowledge.
Now I'm jumping off my soapbox.
0
Comments
As for toning, I know there are several folks on here who are bigtime toning afficianados and a glance at any Teletrade catalogue suggests plenty more out there. However, for most folks, I would suggest taking toning as an incidental quality, buy only what you find appealing and don't pay the crazy premiums for a toned coin because of its toning. There are not very many honestly NT and spectacularly toned pieces out there. Leave those to the specialists to hack out values. Numbers of nice album toned seated are pretty good, but I don't see a premium warranted for them usually. I do see a dicount for the blast white (clearly dipped) ones though.
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Moral of the story - look at/examine the coin AND the holder in order to try to get a feel for whether either has been tampered with.
Did the dealer pop out the original coin and replace it with one that was a higher grade?
And, if so, why?
I believe there's a bit more to the story than the dealer is letting on although I guess the moral of his story is still valid.
peacockcoins
Mark: Thanks very much for your following words of wisdom which I feel are worth repeating:
<< Moral of the story - look at/examine the coin AND the holder in order to try to get a feel for whether either has been tampered with. >>
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Thanks for all the advice. I believe that any YN or seasoned collector knows what to look for.
That's why I try to stay away from the slabbing game. Raw coins rule (for the most part) and you acn still hold them (those in lower grades of course). This way it still feels like you have a coin collection instead of a slab collection (nothing against those that have the better stuff in slabs).
My jaw dropped when I read that he broke the slab right in front of you.
Take care everyone and enjoy the holiday.
Did the dealer pop out the original coin and replace it with one that was a higher grade?
No, he didn't pop out the original, in fact he told me it was the original coin. It was a common date, but he did go on to express about what if it was a rare coin slab and how it could be swapped out. He had that slab as a learning tool and warning for his customers to be careful. At least that's the way I took it.
When he put the slab back together, there were no chips or cracks at the edges...no sign of tampering....I was speechless.
But it wasn't re-SEALED at that point, was it?
<< <i>I'm guessing that the holder had already been (essentially) opened >>
Of course it had. Simply tapping an OGH as described is not going to cause it to pop open. I've tapped many of them to straighten coins that had rotated in the o ring.
Russ, NCNE
I thank Lahcoin for sharing this story with us.
no, just snapped back together(figuratively speaking....there was no 'snap')
Maybe that's the case with this one...I honestly don't know...and he didn't say. But I'll tell you one thing, I'm checking the edges of my slabs right now and looking up sonic sealing. Thanks for responding and piquing my curiousity to research this deeper.
Is there any sample pics of the difference out there on sealed and unsealed?
But he mentioned that some type of "pretreatment" had been done to the slab. I would like to hear what the pretreatment was...
The holder should be a backup to your opinion. Prior to 1986 everything was bought and sold raw. In many ways we aren't that much further along.
If resealing holders were that prevalent it would have come out long before this. PCGS would have done something similar to their actions in the Gary Fernandez incident. When terrible or fake coins start showing up too often in top tier holders it's not going to get missed.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm guessing that the holder had already been (essentially) opened >>
Of course it had. Simply tapping an OGH as described is not going to cause it to pop open. I've tapped many of them to straighten coins that had rotated in the o ring.
Russ, NCNE >>
I agree with Russ. Been there, done that.
I don't doubt Lahcoin's account, but I tend to think that the story the dealer told and the demo given was not what it appeared to be.
<< <i>That's why you have to be able to buy what's in the slab first.
The holder should be a backup to your opinion. >>
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I'm starting to think that MadMarty was onto to something. After looking at the edges of my slabs, it seems that his example sample was a little too pristine, if my memory serves me correctly. I hope so anyway.