This is a good example of e-bay coin dealers.

pbfloyd · September 2, 2006 8:55AM

clw54 · September 2, 2006 8:57AM

You did the right thing.

PerryHall · September 2, 2006 9:06AM

Perfect example of why buying raw coins on eBay can be dangerous. Hope he loses money on the deal.

ScarsdaleCoin · September 2, 2006 9:45AM

I may have missed something but he offers a 3 day return, has good feedback, and mentioned the rim nicks and did not retouch the pics........
so is he really so terrible?

pbfloyd · September 2, 2006 9:56AM

Not at all. Just showing how quickly coins get turned over.

ksteelheader · September 2, 2006 9:57AM

<< I sold it

he bought it and resells it >>

Like nobody buys things and then sells them!!!

coinguy1 · September 2, 2006 9:59AM

<>

<< Not at all. Just showing how quickly coins get turned over. >>

I had thought your original point/example was about the new/current seller's neglecting to mention that the coin had been cleaned.

pbfloyd · September 2, 2006 10:02AM

THAT TOO COINGUY......I would not have cracked it out

GoldenEyeNumismatics · September 2, 2006 10:05AM

Guys like this one really get me PO'd. I have sold coins on Ebay for a couple years now and always describe any problems and give hoenst grading opinions. People like this one who sell problem coins and don't describe all the problems give me a bad name.

pbfloyd · September 2, 2006 10:13AM

this is a better example (for you russ)

Coindexter · September 2, 2006 11:31AM

<< Hope he loses money on the deal. >>

That'd be nice, but don't count on it.

Hyperion · September 2, 2006 11:37AM

would I be out of line to as a question about the listing and ask him why he neglected to mention the TPG considered it cleaned ?
I guess he could always say he disagreed with the TPGs assessment.

Russ · September 2, 2006 11:38AM

<< this is a better example (for you russ) >>

Interesting that you didn't mention that the coin has altered surfaces.

Russ, NCNE

Derek2100 · September 2, 2006 12:58PM

Considering he lost money - whats your point? I would have cracked it out and sold it raw too, but more likely at a show (from my special raw collector coin 2x2 sheets - they stack in a case nicely) and made money. If I were this seller it would make me furious there was some dingbat in collectors universe displaying what I sold the coin I purchased from him for. Your thread shows a total lack of respect for the dignity and privacy of your customers. And for what is this thread for - some silly sideshow? The only thing I can find wrong with the transaction is that he lost money. Today from my table at a show I bought a $10 Lib AU for $180 ($500 retail) , a 1934-S Peace $ in VF for $12 ($90 retail), and a 1896-O Barber Dime in Good 4 for $1.00 ($80 retail - part of a someones 5 pc Americana Set - Indian cent, liberty nickel, and Barber 10c, 25c, 50c I paid $10 for). I won't lose money on these coins LOL. In the coin business you mainly make your money by buying it right! $670 retail for $193 is not that bad for show buying.

clw54 · September 2, 2006 1:03PM

Derek, do you set up at major shows? I want to avoid you.

BlindedByEgo · September 2, 2006 1:05PM

<< Considering he lost money - whats your point? I would have cracked it out and sold it raw too, but more likely at a show (from my special raw collector coin 2x2 sheets - they stack in a case nicely) and made money. If I were this seller it would make me furious there was some dingbat in collectors universe displaying what I sold the coin I purchased from him for. Your thread shows a total lack of respect for the dignity and privacy of your customers. And for what is this thread for - some silly sideshow? The only thing I can find wrong with the transaction is that he lost money. Today from my table at a show I bought a $10 Lib AU for $180 ($500 retail) , a 1934-S Peace $ in VF for $12 ($90 retail), and a 1896-O Barber Dime in Good 4 for $1.00 ($80 retail - part of a someones 5 pc Americana Set - Indian cent, liberty nickel, and Barber 10c, 25c, 50c I paid $10 for). I won't lose money on these coins LOL. In the coin business you mainly make your money by buying it right! $670 retail for $193 is not that bad for show buying. >>

He's not lost money yet.

I think the point that the OP was making was regarding the non-disclosure of the cleaning. Grading IS subjective, but not disclosing material facts is viewed in a negative light by many who frequent this board.

I'm glad that you can score good deals at a show - excellent work! But if you are the kind of dealer that offers walk in sellers 25% behind spot for US gold coins, or rips widows for their dead husbands' coin collections, you may want to keep your head low around here

notwilight · September 2, 2006 1:13PM

<< I may have missed something but he offers a 3 day return, has good feedback, and mentioned the rim nicks and did not retouch the pics........ so is he really so terrible? >>

The general feeling around here is that we should hate him because he is on ebay. Get with the program!!!

AU58WALKERS · September 2, 2006 2:15PM

<< Considering he lost money - whats your point? I would have cracked it out and sold it raw too, but more likely at a show (from my special raw collector coin 2x2 sheets - they stack in a case nicely) and made money. If I were this seller it would make me furious there was some dingbat in collectors universe displaying what I sold the coin I purchased from him for. Your thread shows a total lack of respect for the dignity and privacy of your customers. And for what is this thread for - some silly sideshow? The only thing I can find wrong with the transaction is that he lost money. Today from my table at a show I bought a $10 Lib AU for $180 ($500 retail) , a 1934-S Peace $ in VF for $12 ($90 retail), and a 1896-O Barber Dime in Good 4 for $1.00 ($80 retail - part of a someones 5 pc Americana Set - Indian cent, liberty nickel, and Barber 10c, 25c, 50c I paid $10 for). I won't lose money on these coins LOL. In the coin business you mainly make your money by buying it right! $670 retail for $193 is not that bad for show buying. >>

...and these were the amounts the sellers asked for, right??

Russ · September 3, 2006 4:27AM

<< Considering he lost money - whats your point? >>

The auction is still running, dumbass.

<< Grading IS subjective, but not disclosing material facts is viewed in a negative light by many who frequent this board. >>

Like, for example, the fact that the OP of this thread did not disclose that this coin was bodybagged at PCGS.

Russ, NCNE

BlindedByEgo · September 3, 2006 4:30AM

<< 

<< Considering he lost money - whats your point? >>

The auction is still running, dumbass.

<< Grading IS subjective, but not disclosing material facts is viewed in a negative light by many who frequent this board. >>

Like, for example, the fact that the OP of this thread did not disclose that this coin was bodybagged at PCGS.

Russ, NCNE >>

Supports my argument.

I do think that we are in agreement here, Russ.

We are, aren't we?

Russ · September 3, 2006 4:35AM

<< I do think that we are in agreement here, Russ.

We are, aren't we? >>

That depends. Are you a liberal or a Conservative?

Russ, NCNE

Outhaul · September 3, 2006 4:37AM

<< Like, for example, the fact that the OP of this thread did not disclose that this coin was bodybagged at PCGS. >>

Are you certain?

Do we have another MOC?

Good HEAVENS!

BlindedByEgo · September 3, 2006 4:39AM

<< 

<< I do think that we are in agreement here, Russ.

We are, aren't we? >>

That depends. Are you a liberal or a Conservative?

Russ, NCNE >>

I've been told that I am slightly right of Atilla the Hun.

My local John birch society chapter kicked me out for being too conservative.

Russ · September 3, 2006 5:22AM

<< I've been told that I am slightly right of Atilla the Hun.

My local John birch society chapter kicked me out for being too conservative. >>

Then, of course, we're in agreement.

Russ, NCNE

Derek2100 · September 4, 2006 9:18AM

Looks like he found a good use for it. If I had any red label slabs I would crack them out and sell them raw too. They fit nicely in a 2 x 2 staple holder and then slide into the Cowans plastic album pages.

Myqqy · September 4, 2006 5:13PM

I'm curious to hear pbfloyd's rebuttal concerning the cc morgan that was bodybagged by pcgs, with no mention in the auction listing.....

BlindedByEgo · September 4, 2006 5:36PM

<< I'm curious to hear pbfloyd's rebuttal concerning the cc morgan that was bodybagged by pcgs, with no mention in the auction listing.....

>>

Seeing the red label holder is punishment enough... It discloses a cleaning, which I automatically take to mean "wont get into a PCGS holder".

Don't you think that disclosing (if that is the appropriate word) the PCGS BB is sort of gilding the lily?

Myqqy · September 4, 2006 5:42PM

Seeing the red label holder is punishment enough

I'm referring to the cc morgan, which was sold raw....

mercurydimeguy · September 4, 2006 9:41PM

Why do some people who post here insist on being defenders of the free numismatic world? People should mind their own business. And I say this because there are no absolutes when it comes to coin grading - zero!

I had a coin I bought one time on eBay in a second tier XF-40 holder for a book I'm doing with my kids, thinking the coin would be VF'ish (that's kind of the average grade of the coins in the book). Didn't really take a good look at the coin until I cracked to put it in to the book. Upon review the coins looked much nicer -- a solid AU50. Since there was a considerable price delta, and the coin looked much nicer than the rest of the coins in the book, I decided to just sell the coin raw, take some profits, and buy a coin that was VF'ish to match my book.

The original seller wound up contacting every single bidder in my new auction telling them what a piece of **** I was, yada, yada, contacting me and threatening me with God knows what, yada, yada. I wound up selling the coin for just about $30 above what I paid for it (a lot less than AU50 money, and even less than XF-40 money...thank God I bought the coin cheaper than XF-40 money). I received positive feedback from the new buyer, and a few months later ran in to the buyer in person. He proceeded to thank me for the good deal on the coin because he just got it slabbed AU50 by the top tier TPG.

If you were to consider this story the mean, I can tell you countless more to each side of the mean.

Although outright fraud is a terrible thing (selling counterfeit coins as real, etc.), people who don't know much about numismatics should buy coins certified by top tier TPG's (not that this is guarantee or anything either). If they do not have enough common sense to follow such trivial advice, then unfortunately the only way they'll learn is by going to the casino a few times and getting hammered. Eventually they will either stop gambling, or buy a book to learn what they are doing.

But some folks here passing off their opinions as unquestionable truth, acting as though they are the end-all/be-all -- this is almost as bad as the activity these defenders of the free numismatic world are trying to prevent. It is these defenders' own greed and jealousy that drives this behavior on their part because secretely either they wish they could've made a profit (if a profit is to be made), or they have a subconscious need to elevate their own self esteeem by "exposing" those whose views are contrary to their own, and then posting here hoping others would agree to make the defenders' feel better about their position on the issue.

Get a life -- and mind your own business!

MrEureka · September 4, 2006 9:55PM

Your thread shows a total lack of respect for the dignity and privacy of your customers.

This was a public Ebay auction and no private information has been revealed. And as for dignity, the listings speak for themselves.

That said, my sentiments reflect those of MDG.

notwilight · September 4, 2006 9:55PM

Good post. -Jerry

pbfloyd · September 4, 2006 10:47PM

I would like to respond to why I didnt mention the pcgs bb in my auction.
1. My pictures were detailed and showed the coin as it was.
2. I purchased that coin from a dealer in a old anacs holder, it was graded 62 dmpl.
3. The altered surfaces bb was a close call Imo.
4. I have showed that coin to many people including posting a pic on this forum. Only one member questioned the cheek. However after I posted the "grade it recieved" I had many 'experts" post why they thought it was bb'ed. Everyone who has seen this coin in hand loves it.
5. I am not a dealer. I also offered money back if they didnt like the coin. He was very happy with it.

I would like to add that I PM'ed a respected member and asked if they thought it was unethical to not mention the bb. They thought it was unethical, so I guess I should have mentioned it. As of now all coins I own are either pcgs or ngc so I wont have to worry about it in the future.

Russ · September 5, 2006 2:38AM

<< It is these defenders' own greed and jealousy that drives this behavior on their part because secretely either they wish they could've made a profit (if a profit is to be made) >>

Or, maybe they're just trying to prevent people from getting screwed.

Russ, NCNE

BlindedByEgo · September 5, 2006 3:26AM

Interesting thread. I hear MDG's argument - that pedigree really shouldn't matter on low end coins, and that all TPG's are subject to errors in grading, both over and under.

I don't have a horse in this race, and honestly don't think that anybody did anything wrong. I like the fact that there are people out there trying to keep the uninformed from getting taken, but will admit that the effort seems to go overboard smoetimes.

The argument that shedding light on any auction is just a tool for the posters' self aggrandizement is over the top. While many people here have strong opinions, just because they share them with confidence does not give them the force of "unquestionable truth". I'm a big boy and make my own decisions on right or wrong - I'm not going to drink ANY brand of Koolaide.

If I don't want the light shed upon my actions when I sell coins on Ebay, it's up to me. All I have to do is leave the forum. Until then, the forum is just a way to make public information even more public - good or bad.

Coxe · September 5, 2006 5:29AM

The new seller seems pretty candid and his images are clear enough to assess the coin pretty well. Can't say the same for your lousy images on that lot. Yeah, can read the tag really well (for what it is worth from a third world service). I am not a mean-spirited guy, but I am surprised noone else brought this up. And better images will likely get you better prices. I do see that your other recent lots have much better images though.

Yes, some coins turn over fast, many of them problem coins. OTOH, some people are buying a coin specifically because they believe they can represent it to get a better price.....profit. That's what dealers do.

This is a good example of e-bay coin dealers.

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