High end coin dealers and the toned coin craze

RYK · August 31, 2006 4:37AM

I have noticed that many high-end dealers have largely avoided the toned coin craze. Not that they do not buy/sell toned coins, but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. Examples of these dealers would include Mark Feld, Legend, Pinnacle, Whitlow, and Coin Rarities Online. Is this an example, like high-grade moderns, in which the legacy dealers may not understand the market for these, or do they know something that toned coin collectors do not and intentionally avoid the space.

MacCrimmon · August 31, 2006 4:40AM

<< or do they know something that toned coin collectors do not and intentionally avoid the space. >>

IGWT · August 31, 2006 4:41AM

Now that's a loaded question.

curly · August 31, 2006 4:46AM

I would imagine it's because the toned common stuff can be bought all day long at the local coin shop and the small shows. When you pay those table fees for the Long Beaches and FUNs, you won't make much by trying to sell those birds.

ColonialCoinUnion · August 31, 2006 4:47AM

<< Is this an example, like high-grade moderns, in which the legacy dealers may not understand the market for these, or do they know something that toned coin collectors do not and intentionally avoid the space. >>

Speaking only for us, I'd say we are not expert in the toned coin market, we don't have a lot of customers seeking such coins and, as a result, we don't make a strong effort to buy such coins.

Having said that, occasionally we take such items in trade, or they come as part of a group of coins, or we'll see something for sale that may be wildly toned but also has some other characteristic that is in our niche.

Tonelover · August 31, 2006 4:48AM

Some of us simply feel that there are better values to be had in other areas of the toned coin market.

ColonialCoinUnion · August 31, 2006 4:50AM

<< I would imagine it's because the toned common stuff can be bought all day long at the local coin shop and the small shows. When you pay those table fees for the Long Beaches and FUNs, you won't make much by trying to sell those birds. >>

Perhaps I should defer to someone who does deal in this material, but I think your theory is way off base.

I would imagine that margins are strong in this area since there iaren't well defined sheet values for a wildly toned coins.

Russ · August 31, 2006 4:50AM

<< but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. >>

They don't? Laura ponied up over $20K for an 1880-S Morgan recently.

Russ, NCNE

RYK · August 31, 2006 4:53AM

They don't? Laura ponied up over $20K for an 1880-S Morgan recently.

I am not aware of every transaction of each of the party listed (and should add RCNH to that list), and expect all of said dealers has handled such coins on occasion, but these coins are not typically offered in their inventories.

Longacre · August 31, 2006 4:55AM

I think the high end dealers tend to understand the markets better, and although they may deal in such coins, it is only as an accomodation to their regular clients, and, as a result, those coins are only in the dealer's hands for a short period of time.

Russ · August 31, 2006 4:55AM

<< I am not aware of every transaction of each of the party listed >>

Well, you should be.

Russ, NCNE

RYK · August 31, 2006 4:59AM

<>

<<Well, you should be.

>>

Tough crowd.

(Always!)

coinguy1 · August 31, 2006 5:03AM

Speaking only for myself....In general, I prefer to handle attractively toned, high quality coins at reasonable premiums over generic pieces, vs. wildly toned ones (even those which are unquestionably original) at extremely high premiums.

I have paid multiples of bid levels for certain amazingly toned coins, but mostly for ones that were not of especially high dollar value. If you have an incredibly beautiful toned coin for sale at 10 times bid, you will often get a lot of oohs and ahhs, but not always too many takers for an actual transaction. I have better success with attractive, above average quality coins at approximately 25% to 50% over bid. Far more collectors and dealers understand and are more comfortable with such price levels/premiums.

I love exquisite, amazing coins as much as, if not more than the next person. But, unless I am acquiring a "must have" coin for a client's collection, the price (level) does matter at some point. The simple reality is that different buyers draw the line in different places - it's all relative.

p8nt · August 31, 2006 5:05AM

Mark, didn't you have a Battle Creek Morgan in your case at the ANA show?

Coxe · August 31, 2006 5:06AM

Mikey (coingame2000) quite clearly inventoried a significant number of toned Morgans. He certainly understands the series and the market.

coinguy1 · August 31, 2006 5:09AM

<< Mark, didn't you have a Battle Creek Morgan in your case at the ANA show? >>

I did, but it was on consignment from a client. And, as mentioned, I said "In general.....".

mrearlygold · August 31, 2006 5:14AM

It sure seems like there's a lot more wildly toned coins available than years ago. Maybe it's my imagination......

Ya think?

stman · August 31, 2006 5:18AM

<< 

<< but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. >>

They don't? Laura ponied up over $20K for an 1880-S Morgan recently.

Russ, NCNE >>

I believe that was auction representation for a board member. I also believe some high profile dealers get too much credit for stepping up for certain coins..... when they weren't buying for inventory and merely spending a clients money. JMWO

morgannut2 · August 31, 2006 5:20AM

<< 

<< but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. >>

They don't? Laura ponied up over $20K for an 1880-S Morgan recently.

Russ, NCNE >>

----
Yes but she was representing Sunnywood, for his collection. And the coin was known to have been toned a long time (it hasn't turned) since it's sale at Stacks in 1984 for a then record os about $1450. It was also unusual in that it was beautifully toned but didn't have the "Neon Sign" psycodelic colors that some collectors think look more like bad a tie-dyed teeshirt... As well as being graded MS68 (although technically on viewing it seemed closer to MS67, IMHO).

RedTiger · August 31, 2006 5:23AM

<< It sure seems like there's a lot more wildly toned coins available than years ago. Maybe it's my imagination......

Ya think? >>

I observe the same, lots more toners available in the past year or two even compared with five years ago. Some are showing up in series not know for toners and in my mind are extremely suspect. A year to two out, I expect the number of nice looking toners to double again.

coinguy1 · August 31, 2006 5:24AM

<<As well as being graded MS68 (although technically on viewing it seemed closer to MS67, IMHO).>>

It sure looked like an MS68 to me, and a gorgeous one at that. I can also tell you that it was submitted to PCGS just one time - it wasn't one of those coins that needed to be re-submitted numerous times to get the "correct" grade.

dizzyfoxx · August 31, 2006 5:26AM

<< 

<< but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. >>

They don't? Laura ponied up over $20K for an 1880-S Morgan recently.

Russ, NCNE >>

I'd

to see an image of that coin Russ. My guess would be it's pretty special.

291fifth · August 31, 2006 5:27AM

They don't want to risk losing customers who try to sell the toners back only to hear that "we have an adequate supply."

coinguy1 · August 31, 2006 5:33AM

<< 

<< 

<< but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. >>

They don't? Laura ponied up over $20K for an 1880-S Morgan recently.

Russ, NCNE >>

I'd

to see an image of that coin Russ. My guess would be it's pretty special.

>>

Dizzy, the color was more subtle/delicate and much more appealing in person and the surfaces were semi-prooflike and wonderfully lustrous, but here you go....

morgannut2 · August 31, 2006 5:34AM

<< <<As well as being graded MS68 (although technically on viewing it seemed closer to MS67, IMHO).>>

It sure looked like an MS68 to me, and a gorgeous one at that. I can also tell you that it was submitted to PCGS just one time - it wasn't one of those coins that needed to be re-submitted numerous times to get the "correct" grade.

>>

-------------------
It had a tick or two that sometimes PCGS--- on other Morgans--- knocks an otherwise MS68 down to MS67.
---
I still bid though!!!-

Myqqy · August 31, 2006 5:39AM

20K sounds very steep to me, but that 80-S sure is attractive....

CTcollector · August 31, 2006 5:51AM

<< I have noticed that many high-end dealers have largely avoided the toned coin craze. Not that they do not buy/sell toned coins, but they do not buy common coins (ie. 81-S Morgans) at huge premiums for attractive color. Examples of these dealers would include Mark Feld, Legend, Pinnacle, Whitlow, and Coin Rarities Online. Is this an example, like high-grade moderns, in which the legacy dealers may not understand the market for these, or do they know something that toned coin collectors do not and intentionally avoid the space. >>

I have purchased and sold back coins to Feld, Pinnacle, and Whitlow/Printz. I believe the main reason you do not see them placing these crazy (and in some cases questionable) toners with insane price tags with clients is that they unequivocally stand buy their coins. That means they will gladly purchase them back at good money. They are not going to sell someone a $25k common date morgan only to have to offer that same person $5k on the same coin once a fad wears off. Additionally, I think they truly care about potentially burying a client in a coin. They understand the risk of handling and owning certain coins. Its really nothing more than that.

stman · August 31, 2006 5:53AM

<< Mikey (coingame2000) quite clearly inventoried a significant number of toned Morgans. He certainly understands the series and the market. >>

And I will add, Coingame2000 (Mike DeFalko) certainly stands behind the coins he sells and makes a very fair buyback as well.

RYK · August 31, 2006 5:53AM

Yes but she was representing Sunnywood, for his collection. And the coin was known to have been toned a long time (it hasn't turned) since it's sale at Stacks in 1984 for a then record os about $1450. It was also unusual in that it was beautifully toned but didn't have the "Neon Sign" psycodelic colors that some collectors think look more like bad a tie-dyed teeshirt... As well as being graded MS68 (although technically on viewing it seemed closer to MS67, IMHO).

I don't consider an MS-68 80-S Morgan to be common. I do consider an MS-63 80-S Morgan to be common.

TomB · August 31, 2006 6:11AM

I think there is a slight flaw in the premise of the original question in that these dealers in general simply do not carry this material. They generally don't carry bags of circulated IHCs either, but I don't know that there is an underlying market reason they don't outside of the fact that this isn't their niche. It's almost like asking why doesn't the local Mercedes Benz dealer sell me a Ford. I realize that analogy is too extreme, but your favorite dealers aren't always going to be active in every market niche.

ScarsdaleCoin · August 31, 2006 6:13AM

I never believed in paying crazy high prices for toned coins....hence never had that many to sell....

morgannut2 · August 31, 2006 6:20AM

<< Yes but she was representing Sunnywood, for his collection. And the coin was known to have been toned a long time (it hasn't turned) since it's sale at Stacks in 1984 for a then record os about $1450. It was also unusual in that it was beautifully toned but didn't have the "Neon Sign" psycodelic colors that some collectors think look more like bad a tie-dyed teeshirt... As well as being graded MS68 (although technically on viewing it seemed closer to MS67, IMHO).

I don't consider an MS-68 80-S Morgan to be common. I do consider an MS-63 80-S Morgan to be common. >>

------

--------- A "common" DATE, is not the same as common. This was the prettiest Morgan I've ever held
and the most I've ever bid for one. I don't understand how such a MS68 beautiful coin with a long auction provinance can
be called common!

Russ · August 31, 2006 6:24AM

Oh, and BTW Mark, what did I predict it would sell for?

Russ, NCNE

RYK · August 31, 2006 6:26AM

I think there is a slight flaw in the premise of the original question in that these dealers in general simply do not carry this material. They generally don't carry bags of circulated IHCs either, but I don't know that there is an underlying market reason they don't outside of the fact that this isn't their niche. It's almost like asking why doesn't the local Mercedes Benz dealer sell me a Ford. I realize that analogy is too extreme, but your favorite dealers aren't always going to be active in every market niche.

I do not disagree with your point. Most of the forementioned dealers do carry originally toned coins, high-end MS coins, and Morgans, so it would not be a complete stretch to consider that they might carry these premium toned coins.

coinguy1 · August 31, 2006 6:27AM

<< Oh, and BTW Mark, what did I predict it would sell for?

Russ, NCNE >>

Russ, I don't recall with any certainty, but I think you figured it at $7500?

Ok, maybe it was more along the lines of $20,000 (hammer)?

Russ · August 31, 2006 6:29AM

<< I don't consider an MS-68 80-S Morgan to be common. >>

Can I quote you the next time some modern basher comes along with the tired old song, "but there are millions more out there"?

Russ, NCNE

RYK · August 31, 2006 6:34AM

Can I quote you the next time some modern basher comes along with the tired old song, "but there are millions more out there"?

Sure, I'm hip to the modern scene. Personally, I am no more likely to buy a $20,000 Morgan in MS-68 as I am to buy a $20,000 Kennedy.

Pushkin · August 31, 2006 6:41AM

<< It sure seems like there's a lot more wildly toned coins available than years ago. >>

Supply and demand.

coingame2000 · August 31, 2006 7:22AM

<< Mikey (coingame2000) quite clearly inventoried a significant number of toned Morgans. He certainly understands the series and the market. >>

Yes, I feel I do have a reasonably good handle on this market niche. I've been buying and selling wild monster toned coins for over thirty years utilizing the same strategy I used in the Battle Creek Sales -- (1) step up to the plate and be very aggressive; (2) buy the finest most eye appealing coins in the deal; and (3) be prepared inventory them for a lengthy period of time. I have already sold more than half of the Battle Creek coins I purchased to very serious LONG-TERM collectors (who share my view) -- and I continue to sell a few each month, which is fine with me. This market is certainly not for everyone -- it's a highly specialized area that is best left to dedicated COLLECTORS with a genuine passion for them.

Mikey

coingame2000 · August 31, 2006 7:23AM

<< 

<< Mikey (coingame2000) quite clearly inventoried a significant number of toned Morgans. He certainly understands the series and the market. >>

And I will add, Coingame2000 (Mike DeFalko) certainly stands behind the coins he sells and makes a very fair buyback as well. >>

Thank you Steve -- I appreciate the kind words.

Mikey

stman · August 31, 2006 7:44AM

<< 

<< 

<< Mikey (coingame2000) quite clearly inventoried a significant number of toned Morgans. He certainly understands the series and the market. >>

And I will add, Coingame2000 (Mike DeFalko) certainly stands behind the coins he sells and makes a very fair buyback as well. >>

Thank you Steve -- I appreciate the kind words.

Mikey

>>

Mike, I've always given credit where credit is due....... Now I will give credit the other way as well when I see necessary.

(Always say it as I see it.... stman)

bestclser1 · August 31, 2006 7:58AM

<< 

<< Mikey (coingame2000) quite clearly inventoried a significant number of toned Morgans. He certainly understands the series and the market. >>

Yes, I feel I do have a reasonably good handle on this market niche. I've been buying and selling wild monster toned coins for over thirty years utilizing the same strategy I used in the Battle Creek Sales -- (1) step up to the plate and be very aggressive; (2) buy the finest most eye appealing coins in the deal; and (3) be prepared inventory them for a lengthy period of time. I have already sold more than half of the Battle Creek coins I purchased to very serious LONG-TERM collectors (who share my view) -- and I continue to sell a few each month, which is fine with me. This market is certainly not for everyone -- it's a highly specialized area that is best left to dedicated COLLECTORS with a genuine passion for them.

Mikey

>>

Mikey knows toned Morgans as well or better than anyone in the business.It IS a niche market,but the best of any coins are too.

High end coin dealers and the toned coin craze

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