My 2 cents worth on the MOC soap opera.
SanctionII
Posts: 12,603 ✭✭✭✭✭
You never know what a person is really like, even after months, years or decades of dealing with him or her. Good people do bad things and vice versa.
In the abstract, doctoring coins to change, improve their appearance is not inherently wrong (i.e. like murder is). However, doing so in an attempt to make money by selling to the public misrepresented goods is morally and legally wrong. Some persons would probably buy toned coins, even if the toning is AT, simply because they like toned coins (I bought a raw, common Morgan that is blatantly AT simply because I like the colors on the reverse and wanted to have an example of a toned Morgan). The seller of such coins should simply disclose that the coins are AT. In that way the buyer knows what he is buying and the market will set the price for those types of coins. No one gets hurt, because there is full disclosure.
MOC's actions have/will destroy an otherwise good reputation; however this may or may not bother him. As he said his coin days are over and he will look for another hobby. If he takes up another hobby, he will still be who he is and he can be an honest ethical person or not, depending on his own personal choice.
I know various hobbyists who have told me that they doctor coins. They do not seem to be troubled by it. I do not spend huge amounts of money on coins, since my coins are purchased with discretionary funds and since I spend most of my coin money on coins I am very familiar with (not many toned coins). I thus personally do not get excited on the topic of doctored coins. However, if I was an advanced collector spending thousands of dollars or more on individual coins, I would be very, very concerned about AT, doctored coins (I would be afraid of the prospect of losing big bucks), particularly if it became known that even slabbed coins can be doctored.
If I was a TPG, a revelation that its slabbed coins can be doctored would cause me to be very concerned since that could pose a threat to the reputation, good will and financial standing of the company. It will be interesting to see how, if at all, the TPGs react to the MOC situation. If I was a dealer or collector of toned coins I would be similarly concerned about this revelation.
Though others may not agree or find the following of any importance at all, I have one final point.
What really galls me, is the Icon MOC used on the forums. A rather muscular, determined Uncle Sam decked out in Red, White and Blue, shirt sleeves rolled up, ready to get the job done. The image portrayed by this Icon does not deserve to be associated with MOC's behind the scenes coin doctoring activities. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, since my image of the USA is one of goodness, honor and integrity (Pollyanish though that view may be). MOC's doctoring of and selling of slabbed toners without disclosing his doctoring should not be associated with the Red, White and Blue.
In the abstract, doctoring coins to change, improve their appearance is not inherently wrong (i.e. like murder is). However, doing so in an attempt to make money by selling to the public misrepresented goods is morally and legally wrong. Some persons would probably buy toned coins, even if the toning is AT, simply because they like toned coins (I bought a raw, common Morgan that is blatantly AT simply because I like the colors on the reverse and wanted to have an example of a toned Morgan). The seller of such coins should simply disclose that the coins are AT. In that way the buyer knows what he is buying and the market will set the price for those types of coins. No one gets hurt, because there is full disclosure.
MOC's actions have/will destroy an otherwise good reputation; however this may or may not bother him. As he said his coin days are over and he will look for another hobby. If he takes up another hobby, he will still be who he is and he can be an honest ethical person or not, depending on his own personal choice.
I know various hobbyists who have told me that they doctor coins. They do not seem to be troubled by it. I do not spend huge amounts of money on coins, since my coins are purchased with discretionary funds and since I spend most of my coin money on coins I am very familiar with (not many toned coins). I thus personally do not get excited on the topic of doctored coins. However, if I was an advanced collector spending thousands of dollars or more on individual coins, I would be very, very concerned about AT, doctored coins (I would be afraid of the prospect of losing big bucks), particularly if it became known that even slabbed coins can be doctored.
If I was a TPG, a revelation that its slabbed coins can be doctored would cause me to be very concerned since that could pose a threat to the reputation, good will and financial standing of the company. It will be interesting to see how, if at all, the TPGs react to the MOC situation. If I was a dealer or collector of toned coins I would be similarly concerned about this revelation.
Though others may not agree or find the following of any importance at all, I have one final point.
What really galls me, is the Icon MOC used on the forums. A rather muscular, determined Uncle Sam decked out in Red, White and Blue, shirt sleeves rolled up, ready to get the job done. The image portrayed by this Icon does not deserve to be associated with MOC's behind the scenes coin doctoring activities. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, since my image of the USA is one of goodness, honor and integrity (Pollyanish though that view may be). MOC's doctoring of and selling of slabbed toners without disclosing his doctoring should not be associated with the Red, White and Blue.
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What really galls me, is the Icon MOC used on the forums. A rather muscular, determined Uncle Sam decked out in Red, White and Blue, shirt sleeves rolled up, ready to get the job done. The image portrayed by this Icon does not deserve to be associated with MOC's behind the scenes coin doctoring activities. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, since my image of the USA is one of goodness, honor and integrity (Pollyanish though that view may be). MOC's doctoring of and selling of slabbed toners without disclosing his doctoring should not be associated with the Red, White and Blue. >>
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I think this icon is preferred by those "in the know" >>
Russ, NCNE
<< <i> If he takes up another hobby, he will still be who he is and he can be an honest ethical person or not, depending on his own personal choice.
>>
"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice."
-William Jennings Bryan
Actually it wasn't a soap opera IMO, it was a hyped up non-event.
A guy fraudulently cooked up a few ugly and easily discernable AT'd low grade junk coins and tried to push them on Ebay.........got outed, made up a silly unbelievable story........apologized.......etc, etc.
As I said, a non-event IMO. Although the best part was all the nonsense spinoff threads by the clueless masses and fear mongers about PCGS grading and the toned coin market in general.
<< <i>Actually it wasn't a soap opera IMO, it was a hyped up non-event. >>
Tampering with the coin *inside* the slab of a top TPG is a non-event?
Time and time again on these forums and elsewhere, many advanced collectors advise newbies to buy only "slabbed" coins for their own security. Well, now that security has been bypassed.
I'm sorry, but I don't see that as a "non-event." Maybe it won't have a catastrophic effect as long it's confined to rattlers...but if (and I stress IF) someone discovers you can do this to coins in *newer* TPG holders? That could be the numismatic equivalent of a bird flu epidemic.
<< <i><<< My 2 cents worth on the MOC soap opera. >>>
Actually it wasn't a soap opera IMO, it was a hyped up non-event.
A guy fraudulently cooked up a few ugly and easily discernable AT'd low grade junk coins and tried to push them on Ebay.........got outed, made up a silly unbelievable story........apologized.......etc, etc.
As I said, a non-event IMO. Although the best part was all the nonsense spinoff threads by the clueless masses and fear mongers about PCGS grading and the toned coin market in general. >>
Well, in that case, send me some money.
Yes ziggy, it was a non-event. An amateur wannabe coin doctor ruins a few inexpensive coins in old 1st gen. holders and tries to push them on Ebay and gets caught.........hardly an earth shattering event IMO.
<< <i><<< Tampering with the coin *inside* the slab of a top TPG is a non-event? >>>
Yes ziggy, it was a non-event. An amateur wannabe coin doctor ruins a few inexpensive coins in old 1st gen. holders and tries to push them on Ebay and gets caught.........hardly an earth shattering event IMO. >>
Doesn't PCGS have to stand behind those coins?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>
Yes ziggy, it was a non-event. An amateur wannabe coin doctor ruins a few inexpensive coins in old 1st gen. holders and tries to push them on Ebay and gets caught.........hardly an earth shattering event IMO. >>
The earth-shattering nature of the soap opera we've seen played out over the past couple of days is the fact that he was an "amateur wannabe coin doctor."
By accepting the fact that a "hobbyist" was able to magically tone coins inside the most respected third party grading company's slabs, we also must face the fact that there are people making wonderful careers out of doing this, and other deceitful doctorings, professionally, 5 or 6 days a week.....
If you've got a brain in your head, it's gotta make you wonder.
A lot.
This is a tragic incident of a probable suicide. I post it here because it involves Hydrogen Sulfide. Which I believe may be what some of the coin doctors who are trying to tone coins in slabs might use.
It is dangerous stuff
And if the site asks you for registration, I post the text of the article here:
<< <i>An 18-year-old San Jose man found unconscious at home after he was contaminated with a toxic chemical died Friday at Valley Medical Center.
George Herrera was pronounced dead at 4:55 p.m. at the hospital, the Santa Clara County medical examiner's office said. The cause of death is unknown pending an autopsy
Herrera never regained consciousness after being admitted to the hospital.
The original call at 8:05 a.m. from the 3000 block of Yucca Avenue of an attempted suicide triggered a nearly five-hour hazardous materials lockdown of Santa Clara County's busiest emergency room Thursday. The teen's mother called 911 to report an attempted suicide by her son, police said.
Two pans containing hydrogen sulfide were found on a table in the teenager's bedroom, where he was found unconscious by his mother, fire Capt. Barry Stallard said. Because crews didn't realize what the chemical was until about 1:30 p.m., emergency responders took the conservative steps of shutting down the ER and decontaminating the nearly 100 people hospital staff believed could have been exposed.
Hydrogen sulfide is known for its rotten egg smell, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and is only toxic in very high concentrations inside a confined space.
It remains unclear why the teen had the chemical inside his bedroom. >>
It shut down the main emergency room in San Jose for many hours.
Individuals who have suffered exteme Hydrogen Sulfide poisoning also show a second, interesting condition. Any copper cents they have in their pockets change color. Info
<< <i>I do not really want to make a new thread for this. But I also hesitate to recycle an old thread. Oh well, here goes.
This is a tragic incident of a probable suicide. I post it here because it involves Hydrogen Sulfide. Which I believe may be what some of the coin doctors who are trying to tone coins in slabs might use.
It is dangerous stuff
And if the site asks you for registration, I post the text of the article here:
<< <i>An 18-year-old San Jose man found unconscious at home after he was contaminated with a toxic chemical died Friday at Valley Medical Center.
George Herrera was pronounced dead at 4:55 p.m. at the hospital, the Santa Clara County medical examiner's office said. The cause of death is unknown pending an autopsy
Herrera never regained consciousness after being admitted to the hospital.
The original call at 8:05 a.m. from the 3000 block of Yucca Avenue of an attempted suicide triggered a nearly five-hour hazardous materials lockdown of Santa Clara County's busiest emergency room Thursday. The teen's mother called 911 to report an attempted suicide by her son, police said.
Two pans containing hydrogen sulfide were found on a table in the teenager's bedroom, where he was found unconscious by his mother, fire Capt. Barry Stallard said. Because crews didn't realize what the chemical was until about 1:30 p.m., emergency responders took the conservative steps of shutting down the ER and decontaminating the nearly 100 people hospital staff believed could have been exposed.
Hydrogen sulfide is known for its rotten egg smell, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and is only toxic in very high concentrations inside a confined space.
It remains unclear why the teen had the chemical inside his bedroom. >>
It shut down the main emergency room in San Jose for many hours.
Individuals who have suffered exteme Hydrogen Sulfide poisoning also show a second, interesting condition. Any copper cents they have in their pockets change color. Info >>
Before I retired from CAT™, we had a 500 gallon tank of that at the York, PA plant. We on the HazMat team were trained twice yearly on it.
You certainly don't need high concentrations in a confined space. A few good whiffs will do it.
The news gets stupider and the world gets crazier every day.
<< <i>Did PCGS ever redesign their holders to prevent this type of abuse? >>
I seriously doubt that DH would share that info publicly. Usually security measures of a proprietary nature are kept secret. I have to believe that PCGS is much more concerned right now with the pandemic of Chinese forgeries.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>Did PCGS ever redesign their holders to prevent this type of abuse? >>
You saw his recent eBay listings that he posted on the BST as well, eh?
<< <i>You saw his recent eBay listings that he posted on the BST as well, eh? >>
Well, some of those did look a tad ... ahem ... questionable.
Took me a few seconds wondering why all of the sudden there would be an MOC thread until I looked at the year of the first post.