A Guy came in today with 800 counterfeit Silver Dollars

VTCoins · August 21, 2006 4:57AM

They were mostly Morgan and Peace dollars with a few Bust, Seated and Trade dollars.

He told me that another dealer was selling some for him on eBay and describing them as counterfeit.

Scary stuff.

291fifth · August 21, 2006 4:59AM

What was the quality level? Did he say anything about his source?

robertpr · August 21, 2006 5:00AM

<< Did he say anything about his source? >>

I'm guessing North Korea

VTCoins · August 21, 2006 5:03AM

What was the quality level? Did he say anything about his source?

Most of the coins were pretty poor. They were too light. They had a silver "ring" to them, so they most likely had some silver in them. Quite a few had poor rotations from obverse to reverse. A few of the Peace dollars were pretty good. There were also some fake silver rounds.

I believe he said that he got them from his father.

kiyote · August 21, 2006 5:16AM

Any 1981 Morgans or 1783 Peace dollars?

Myqqy · August 21, 2006 5:17AM

Was he trying to sell the whole lot to you?

VTCoins · August 21, 2006 5:40AM

Was he trying to sell the whole lot to you?

He wanted me to offer him a price, and I told him I wasn't interested.

Any 1981 Morgans or 1783 Peace dollars?

There were some funky dates, but the only one I remeber was a 1906 Silver American Eagle.

rgl1345 · August 21, 2006 5:44AM

Its not against the law to have counterfeits??

Wolf359 · August 21, 2006 5:46AM

Any Micro O's ? Maybe his father was the creator of these "counterfeits"?

robertpr · August 21, 2006 6:17AM

<< Its not against the law to have counterfeits?? >>

I believe it's against the law to knowingly posess, buy, or sell counterfeit coins and/or currency. "fantasy" pieces, such as dates that were not struck, or copies clearly stamped with the word "copy" are OK. I believe it is OK to copy paper money in either a different color, or out of size specifications - I believe off the top of my head the size must be either 15% larger or smaller than a genuine note, at a minimum. I'm sure the exact laws can easily be referenced online.

Moose1913 · August 21, 2006 7:08AM

<< I believe it's against the law to knowingly posess, buy, or sell counterfeit coins and/or currency. "fantasy" pieces, such as dates that were not struck, or copies clearly stamped with the word "copy" are OK. I believe it is OK to copy paper money in either a different color, or out of size specifications - I believe off the top of my head the size must be either 15% larger or smaller than a genuine note, at a minimum. I'm sure the exact laws can easily be referenced online. >>

I haven't checked out their facts, but it might be a good place to start:

Possessing Counterfeit Coins

09sVDB · August 21, 2006 7:08AM

Hard luck but atleast he didn't pay for them.

OKbustchaser · August 21, 2006 7:26AM

<< 

<< Its not against the law to have counterfeits?? >>

I believe it's against the law to knowingly posess, buy, or sell counterfeit coins and/or currency. "fantasy" pieces, such as dates that were not struck, or copies clearly stamped with the word "copy" are OK. I believe it is OK to copy paper money in either a different color, or out of size specifications - I believe off the top of my head the size must be either 15% larger or smaller than a genuine note, at a minimum. I'm sure the exact laws can easily be referenced online. >>

It is NOT illegal to posess counterfeit coins. It is not illegal to buy them. It is not illegal to sell counterfeits as long as no fraud is commited. (You, the seller, must clearly state that it is a counterfeit.) It is illegal to attempt to use them in commerce, ie spend them. It is also illegal to create new or to import into the U.S. any counterfeits which were created after the passage of the Hobby Protection Act which do not meet the standards of that law (for example, they must clearly show the word COPY.)

Contemporary counterfeits are highly collectable. Often they are worth considerably more than a real example in the same condition would be.

anablep · August 21, 2006 7:33AM

800 in one place makes me wonder how many are really out there floating around. Scary indeed.

rainbowroosie · August 21, 2006 9:34AM

Probably ought to inform the Secret Service/Treasury...

JJM · August 21, 2006 9:37AM

as if its not hard enough dealing all the real stuff !!!!

cullenbryant · August 21, 2006 9:55AM

wow.. thanks for posting the info.

coinandcurrency242 · August 21, 2006 9:57AM

typical these days!

LindeDad · August 21, 2006 10:05AM

And we all gripe about the grading services. Bet none of them were in PCGS, NGC, or ANACs plastic.

BigAl · August 21, 2006 12:57PM

are they silver?

TwoSides2aCoin · August 21, 2006 1:01PM

<< are they silver? >>

only a torch would know for sure

Fletcher · August 21, 2006 1:05PM

Were they all graded MS70 by NTC?

ttxp · August 21, 2006 9:40PM

This should be reported to the Secret Service, the coins were not marked as copy, his friend selling them on the Internet is a huge problem usually associated with China. It would be comforting to hold a seller here accountable for these spurious coins.

I would hesitate in determining the actual law regarding this sort of question based on various conflicting opinions as in this thread, the USSS will let you know. In the event it is not within the interest of the USSS, it would probably be within the interest of the Customs Department as most likely they are imported.

Rules vary so much between federal departments, the seller would generate some federal law enforcement interest if they were fake US Postage stamps from any time period and offered for sale.

At any rate, you should drop the Treasury Department office in Boston a quick call or clarification request on the law? Do you have a field office in VT?

OKbustchaser · August 21, 2006 10:42PM

<< This should be reported to the Secret Service, the coins were not marked as copy, his friend selling them on the Internet is a huge problem usually associated with China. It would be comforting to hold a seller here accountable for these spurious coins.

I would hesitate in determining the actual law regarding this sort of question based on various conflicting opinions as in this thread, the USSS will let you know. In the event it is not within the interest of the USSS, it would probably be within the interest of the Customs Department as most likely they are imported.

Rules vary so much between federal departments, the seller would generate some federal law enforcement interest if they were fake US Postage stamps from any time period and offered for sale.

At any rate, you should drop the Treasury Department office in Boston a quick call or clarification request on the law? Do you have a field office in VT? >>

Once again, no this should not be reported to the Secret Service...The Secret Service has no jurisdiction in the trafficing of numismatic counterfeits as there are NO federal regulations or laws covering them. They would only have a horse in this race if the owner tried to spend them as they DO enforce laws against attempting to pass counterfeit coinage/currency into commerce. That is their only function when it comes to the money supply.

On the other hand, if these counterfeits were inported into the country after 1975 then the Customs Department would have a say in the matter if the coins did not meet the requirements of the Hobby Protection Act. (If created here then it would be under the purvue of the Interstate Commerce Commission.)

<< Sec. 304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.

(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked "COPY".
b) The word "COPY" shall be marked upon the item legibly, conspicuously, and nondeceptively, and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations.
(1) The word "COPY" shall appear in capital letters, in the English language.
(2) The word "COPY" shall be marked on either the obverse or the reverse surface of the item. It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.
(3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be incused with the word "COPY" in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum depth of three-tenths of one millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half (1/2) the thickness of the reproduction, whichever is the lesser. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
(4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material shall be imprinted with the word "COPY" in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word "COPY" shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.

[40 FR 5496, Feb. 6, 1975, as amended at 53 FR 38942, Oct. 4, 1988]
>>

If they were imported (or minted in the U.S. for that matter) prior to the passage of the HPA then it is perfectly legal to own, possess, and/or sell them even without marking them COPY. It is, however, fraud to sell them without disclosing the fact that they are counterfeit.

VTCoins · August 21, 2006 11:33PM

800 in one place makes me wonder how many are really out there floating around. Scary indeed.

I'm hoping the seller doesn't put them in local auctions. If he does, I have a feeling I am going to see his coins come in for years to come.

are they silver?

They may have had some silver. They had a "ring" sound similar to silver coins.

Conder101 · August 22, 2006 1:47AM

Considering he said there were "1906" silver eagles in the group they were made after passage of the 1973 Hobby Protection Act and so were either imported or manufactured illegally (They might try to argue that the others were made earlier but you couldn't have made a design before 1973 that didn't exist until 1986.)

VTCoins · August 22, 2006 2:01AM

A Guy came in today with 800 counterfeit Silver Dollars

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