Would you consider this seller dishonest under these circumstances?
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
A dealer (or collector) buys a coin out of a public auction for $3220, including the buyer's charge. He then offers it for sale to various dealers at a coin show at $3600. A couple of the dealers who view it offer $3000 for, it and he tells them "I can't do that, I paid $3200 for it".
Some of you (if not all of you) are probably wondering why, on earth, I'd start a thread (edited to add: under these circumstances). After all, the person said he paid $3200, when he paid exactly $3220 and he didn't even lie and say his cost was higher than it really was. But here's a little kicker - he purposely didn't say his cost was $3220, because he knew that might let potential buyers know if was a purchase via public auction. Some people do care about things like that and might be less likely to want the coin under those circumstances.
So, was the seller "dishonest"? Thanks.
Some of you (if not all of you) are probably wondering why, on earth, I'd start a thread (edited to add: under these circumstances). After all, the person said he paid $3200, when he paid exactly $3220 and he didn't even lie and say his cost was higher than it really was. But here's a little kicker - he purposely didn't say his cost was $3220, because he knew that might let potential buyers know if was a purchase via public auction. Some people do care about things like that and might be less likely to want the coin under those circumstances.
So, was the seller "dishonest"? Thanks.
0
Comments
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
It's like going to the store and paying $21.20 for something. I just say "I paid $21" or even "$20". I could care less about the smaller rounding.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Was he dishonest? I think not. In fact, I think he offered more info more than he needed to.
<< <i>he purposely didn't say his cost was $3220 >>
The answer is contained within the hypothetical. In the overall scheme of things, however, the offense is de minimis.
Russ, NCNE
As a collector, when I read how coins are passed among dealers with the price jumping up each time, I can't help but think we're taking it up the ass in this hobby.
If I paid 17,134.57 for Coin A
If someone asked, I say I paid 17k (simple as that)
Simple fact of rounding the numbers, easy to say and more importantly for people to understand.
If I paid 17,134.57 for Coin A
If someone asked, I say I paid 17k (simple as that)
Edit for: Man, I have to learn how to type faster.
RegistryNut
No, it's a "none-of-your-business" kind of lie
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Why stop there? As far as I'm concerned, collectors should only buy and sell at face value, with banks and with each other.
Oh, and as for the hypothetical, of course it's dishonest, but it's perfectly acceptable.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It means that everyone else at the auction passed on the coin at a lower level.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
IMO, seller gave too much info to begin with for whatever reason.
Have a Great Day!
Louis
<< <i> Why does it matter if the guy got it at a public auction?
It means that everyone else at the auction passed on the coin at a lower level. >>
I see. Makes sense, when looking at it that way. It sounds like the potential buyers knew what to pay for it in the first place, then.
That's rarely the case. Usually, everyone's more or less flying in the dark, and sometimes they're not even in the air.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No, I wouldn't think it dishonest ...
Does this mean that dealers should tell their prospective clients "OH by the way I bought this coin in an auction and paid xxx dollars for it but I'm willing to let you have it for xxxx dollars?"
If a dealer would have purchased it in auction for the $3,200 what would one expect to see it in their case fpr ??? $4,000 or more ???
I think the seller was being very honest and fair putting all the cards on the table.
I paid hard earned money to have this graded.
It is a 1950 D Franklin. The obverse is just as nice a strike.
AU58 ?... Let's round down, it isn't dishonest, is it ?
as for the thread, a person rounding down is not guilty of dishonesty. If the IRS allows it, I suppose numismatists should be allowed, too.
but in the grading room ?
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
#1: If the seller knows the misstatement about the price paid will be material to the buyer's decision making process, then you could argue the seller is deliberately misleading the buyer on a material fact and thus committing a dishonest act (i.e., fraud).
#2: If the statement doesn't relate to the nature or quality of the coin itself, then it's not material, and there's no dishonesty involved.
I would incline toward approach #2. I think this is the type of issue you can expect a seller to fudge on during a negotiation, and that any buyer should take such statements with a healthy dose of skepticism.
Of course, the best approach of all would be to avoid the problem by either declining to disclose purchase price or qualifying the figure ("I paid around $3200 for it).
Interesting hypothetical.
Usually the forum's response to what a dealer paid and subsequently stated, is to immediately discredit the information. Surprisingly, this was not stated once here, which makes me feel good. A number of good dealers I know often do this and I know I'm getting the right number.
roadrunner
<< <i>Every now and then, but not often, a customer will ask me what I paid for a coin. I will most often smile, and simply say, "Less than what I'm selling it to you for". >>
...now that's what I'm talking about.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
IMHO, What I've Got In It is one of the most lame negotiation concepts known to mankind.
From the buyer's perspective, it is totally meaningless. First of all, the buyer has no idea if the
seller is telling the truth (it is easy to pull a figure out of your backside). Everyone here can probably
relate stories where the What I've Got In It was proven to be a lie. If someone overpaid for
something, that is their fault, and not the buyer's.
As a buyer, I simply do not care how much someone has spent on a coin. I am only interested in two
things - do I want the coin, and what is the maximum that I will pay for it.
I would imagine that using What I've Got In It does not help the seller in negotiations at all,
unless it is a dealer transaction amongst friends, and, in that event, the sentence would likely be used
in conjunction with a fast turn at a minimal profit, percentage-wise.
I see nothing wrong with what the seller said - I just think all What I've Got In It song and dances
are meaningless for any particular transaction.
John
SFC, US Army (Ret.) 1974-1994
Does it really matter? No.
Anyone who believes the line: This is what I have in the coin ..., should close their ears. This is not to say that some do not in fact tell you what they actually paid but it is useless information IMO. The coin is worth what it is worth to you and the seller is only going to sell it for the price he is willing to sell it for.
Joe.
Seems as though the "I've got $X in it" gambit is just a basic negotiating tactic anyway, and not assumed to be an actual statement of fact.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
BTW, would it have made a difference? The hammer price, Buyer’s Premium, s/h, and tax came out of his pocket. So, why does the sales venue matter? I would be inclined to think he must have been protecting his own interests, if he went out of his way to consider hiding the Buyer's Premium.
CONECA #N-3446
In fact, the above would have been totally honest.
Joe.
Either way, the seller's statement is dishonest, and the real question (I think) is whether or not dishonesty of this kind is acceptable. The answer to that question depends on whether or not the misrepresentation matters to the prospective purchaser. All I can say is that it wouldn't matter to me.
-- "There have been many situations where I've been asked what I paid for a coin and I "rounded down" by more than 50%. I do that because, with some people, they would rather believe that they are somehow participating in your windfall than to simply allow you to make an honest 10%. I consider this strategy dishonest but fair play. Then again, everyone has his own ideas as to what constitutes fair play." --
Fascinating!
We all do the rounding thing from time to time.
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etexmike
A couple of posters have asked that question. The venue might not matter to most buyers. However, the fact that a coin has sold via public auction and that many potential buyers already saw it/had a chance to purchase it, does make a difference to some buyers. Given a choice, with all other things being equal, a dealer would much prefer to buy a coin which has not been seen by a large number of potential buyers recently.
dig to the depths of our souls on INTEGRITY just to say you mis-titled the thread.
You coulda called it "FRESH MATERIAL" without a price history
LOL
P.S. I do like your threads, though. They forever get me to ponder the SIDE of the coin I am on
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The seller is does not need to reveal where the coin came from, it's up to the buyer of the coin to decide if they like it. If they do, buyer/seller agree to a price and off everyone goes.
When someone says I paid xyz for a coin, or bought here or there you have to take it with a grain of salt because 9 out of 10 times the information is innacurate, at least in dealer to dealer transactions. Especially when some says I paid x-
$20?
$20?
We'd spill that much in drinks negotiating the eventual price.
What he paid for the coin is of no concern to me. What I pay for it is.
but because I like you, and you are obviously offended by this transgression, the seller is a damned liar, should be horsewhipped, then burned at the stake to set an example to any others that may consider not being 100% accurate with you.
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