Why don't Peace Dollars come toned like Morgans????
majorbigtime
Posts: 2,937 ✭
They have the same metal composition. Morgans are older, but the Peace variety surely has been around long enought to tone naturally. What gives?
MBT
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I will, however, make the observation that Morgan dollars are the exception to the rule, not Peace dollars. (How many coins of other types have you seen with wild bag-toning? Not all that many, I'll bet. ) So I suspect that Morgans toned like they did for one of two reasons. First, it may have something to do with an unusual composition of the Treasury bags in which many were stored. Second, it may have something to do with conditions in the Treasury vaults.
I'd like to hear from the old-timers if the bag-toned Morgans we're now used to seeing were rare before the 1960's release of the Treasury hoard.
Also, who can tell us if many Peace dollars were released in the 60's or in the GSA sale?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I also think after the roaring twenties and into the depression years, not a lot of Peace dollars were stuffed into those same canvas bags and left unattended. I think they saw more practical use via circulation.
Of course, this is speculation, but it seems a logical explanation, huh ?
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Many, many original bags of Peace dollars survived into the modern era. (Especially 22-P and 23-P bags, which were common as dirt.) However, that doesn't necessarily mean that they were stored in the exact same types of bags or in the same place.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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Starting in 1921, the dollar coin planchets were washed with a slightly acidic solution to create bright coins. When rinsed, not all the acid was washed off, and a thin film remained. This film acts like a toning barrier on 1921 Morgan Dollars and on 1921-1935 Peace Dollars.
The decades long storage of these coins in humid Government Treasury Vaults in sulfur rich canvas bags (which provided the necessary chemical ingredients to tone these coins) produced the toned beauties that many of us love to collect and admire.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
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<< <i>How often does one see a remarkably well toned Morgan dated 1921? >>
Here ya go
Herb
Most Morgan dollars were struck, counted, bagged and stored on site at the various mints or sub-treasuries in the same city. Millions also found their way to vaults in Post Office buildings. They sat there subject to humidity, heat, insects, rats and anything else that could affect "junk" left in an old cellar. About 1/2 were pulled out and melted for sale to Great Britain in 1918, and other purposes. The balance were occasionally moved to consolidate vault space, but it was preferred to leave them in place because moving them involved counting the bags and auditing of the sending and receiving vaults. They were just as good for backing silver certificates when stored in New Orleans as in New York. Thus, remaining Morgan dollars had many years (7 to 8 decades) of uncertain storage conditions in canvas bags. Compared to Morgan dollars, Peace dollars spent only about three decades in vaults before being distributed in the 1950s and early 1960s. The fairly common “textile” toning suggests many years in unmoving contact with cloth.
A second factor may be changes in bag composition. I know from extant documents that A Piatt Andrew ordered changes to bag materials in early 1910 to reduce cost. (The bags for all coins were made in the sewing room at the various mints.) George Roberts continued Andrew's cost cutting, so it is possible that changes in materials reduced the opportunity for toning of silver coins after the first part of the 20th century.
Note: specifications for bags, gloves, steel, crucibles and hundreds of other items exist in the mint files as part of annual contract bids, but I have never dug into them except for the Janvier lathe (1906)specifications and a few other special situations.
GoldenEye - Where did you get that info? Can you back it up?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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Combine the acid dip with not as many stored in cloth mint bags and that makes for a much lower number of toners. The coin doctors are hard at work making up the deficit. I see more Peace dollar toners, compared to five years ago. Common sense tells me that many of these are being toned now, not 50 years ago.
<< <i>Why don't Peace Dollars come toned like Morgans???? >>
Great question. I've often wondered the same.
Is there a Doctor in the House? Could we see some toned Peace Dollars? Might be worth your while.
Personally I'd like to see someone put an image of the Virgin Mary on a Peace Dollar. It might go for $100,000.00+ on the 'bay.
It seems to me that these "water spots" are really only prevalent on 21, 22, 23 and (to a lesser extent) 24 Philly dollars. Since it's the entire Peace series that is lacking in "bag toning", I don't think we can expect to tie the spots to the lack of toning.
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Roger - Do you realize how bizarre it is that anyone can instantly provide us with information like that? Thanks!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Yeah, it's kind of creepy.... Some of the very weird stuff seems to get stuck between brain cells and oozes out in response to unusual circumstances. I also have to admit to focusing more on A. Piatt Andrew's short tenure as director because he was such an "odd bird." He got involved in everything from buying gloves for the adjustors to destroying all the pattern hubs. He also thought Sam Brown was incompetent as store clerk and wanted him fired.
There is a lot of "other stuff" that did not make it into the 1905-08 and 1916-21 books. Some is in the 1909-15 book, other incidents will go in articles and collections, or in other people's books as research contributions. (Kind of like the Washington Quarter origin material in the latest Whitman "guide book" series book.
<< <i>Andy,
He also thought Sam Brown was incompetent as store clerk and wanted him fired.
>>
That is so cool you found that. All the thousands (millions?) of words in print written about the 1913 nickel, and this is the first we have heard of this.
I suspect that some of the difference is caused by the flatter surfaces seen on Morgans probably caused
by planchet preparation and higher striking pressure. There was a problem with very high noise levels at
the mint in the late 19th century (probably earlier as well).
Morgans were minted when the Nevada silver barons bribed the party in power to keep producing them
Unlike Peace dollars, Morgans were stored in bags
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The reason I am saying this for the texture of the surface is because when I did some AT experiments on modern pocket change, I found a great difference in the way that films form on coins that were a little bit proof-like as opposed to coins that were a little bit Matte. The same AT techniques produced different results for the different finishes even on the same type of coins. Now I don't know if the ways the dies were prepared differs between Morgans and Peace Dollars or what else is involved with coins having a more smooth finish vs. a more matte finish, but maybe Morgans are different than Peace dollars in this respect. Are there more DMPL's and PL's in Morgans than in Peace dollars? Are the surface textures of even the non-PLs more Matte on Peace dollars? It is just a theory, but one based on observations.
As for the designs themselves being involved, I also noticed that coins with a design closer to the center of the coin (Like a Bison Nickel) toned very differtently from a coin that had the design more spread out (like an ocean in view nickel). I am not sure if it has something to do with flow lines in the luster or what, but they tone very differently using the same AT techniques even though they are from the same year with the same planchet preparation for these two nickle designs. Could this be a factor in Morgans vs. Peace Dollars? Once again, just a theory.
<< <i>Starting in 1921, the dollar coin planchets were washed with a slightly acidic solution to create bright coins. When rinsed, not all the acid was washed off, and a thin film remained. This film acts like a toning barrier on 1921 Morgan Dollars and on 1921-1935 Peace Dollars.
GoldenEye - Where did you get that info? Can you back it up? >>
I do not have any technical info to back that theory up, but that was my first thought when I read the start of the thread.
It is possible that either the pre-1905 or the post-1920 planchet preparation process pickled the surface deep enough to leach out the copper alloy from the surface, leaving a near-pure coating that would tone differently than a .900 fine surface. This is merely a theory. Another equally plausible and/or unprovable theory is that the sawdust used to dry the pre-1905 dollar planchets left a residue that affected subsequent toning.
TD
Doug
<< <i>Doug,That isnt bag toned.Possibly album.Storage in mint bags and different planchets used for Morgans just makes the odds of a real bag toned Peace REAL SLIM.Ihave seen 2.One owned by Newmismatist,and the other by Art R.
Lloyd, the title of the thread is "Why don't Peace Dollars come toned like Morgans????" which I took to mean all types of common Morgan toning, not just bag toning, so I thought this qualified. Cheers!
<< <i>
<< <i>Doug,That isnt bag toned.Possibly album.Storage in mint bags and different planchets used for Morgans just makes the odds of a real bag toned Peace REAL SLIM.Ihave seen 2.One owned by Newmismatist,and the other by Art R.
Lloyd, the title of the thread is "Why don't Peace Dollars come toned like Morgans????" which I took to mean all types of common Morgan toning, not just bag toning, so I thought this qualified. Cheers!
As the creator of the thread, I concur!
MBT
"Toned Peace dollars are miuch more scarce than toned Morgan dollars, and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations. This is due to the following factors: First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process. Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have a smuch time to interace with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored. Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars [e.g., "milk spots"], in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets. This couls serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen, thus retarding the toning process."
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They do. NGC has a monster (that they'll never sell!).
TD
1- Planchet rinsing
2- Length of time stored in bags
3- Location of stored bags/harsh conditions such as humidity
I hadn't heard about the bag material change, but that is certainly a viable addition to the above.
And my favorite peace dollar:
it did take me quite awhile to find a 21 morgan for my raw toner set, its not a remarkable example, but a decent moderatly toned example.... in fact it was the last coin into the set I believe.....since then I grabbed a pcgs 63 / 1921 for next to nothing for fun because it was pcgs 63 / 21 for next to nothing !!!! and the coin exhibits very subtle blue toning on the top letters on the Obv, but the coin must be held at one certain angle to see it., kinda odd toning set up that Ive never seed before, but if pcgs says its cool it works for me
btw, very informative and
this is the only peace Ive owned that had some nice original tone...pic doesnt really bring it out...just sold it...
<< <i>I agree with others--I believe it's a combination of:
1- Planchet rinsing
2- Length of time stored in bags
3- Location of stored bags/harsh conditions such as humidity
I hadn't heard about the bag material change, but that is certainly a viable addition to the above.
And my favorite peace dollar:
Jeremy,Thats a Peace i also dig.
then unfortunatly you see this stuff,...on TT tonite
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