Is it okay to buy your own coin at auction if you think it is going to hammer at too low of a price?

DickyBetz · July 27, 2006 5:44AM

Say you consign a coin to be sold and you find that it isnt selling for as much as you thought it would. Is it okay to buy it yourself?

13PacesEast · July 27, 2006 5:46AM

yep.

RKKay · July 27, 2006 5:48AM

<< yep. >>

etexmike · July 27, 2006 5:56AM

I never have done that, but sure wanted to a couple of times.

-----------

etexmike

Russ · July 27, 2006 6:05AM

No. If the consignor were worried about it, they should have established a reserve. Not doing so and then bidding on their own coin is shilling.

Russ, NCNE

TwoSides2aCoin · July 27, 2006 6:05AM

I think if you consign your coin, you want to get rid of it. If you buy it, you must really like it

pendragon1998 · July 27, 2006 7:17AM

<< No. If the consignor were worried about it, they should have established a reserve. Not doing so and then bidding on their own coin is shilling.

Russ, NCNE >>

Is it shilling if you are the one who ends up with the coin?

You realize that you'll lose money on it by having to pay the consigner anyway and not getting any dough for your coin.

ElKevvo · July 27, 2006 7:54AM

No I do not think it is OK...take the loss and move on. If you wanted to get a certain price, you should have set a reserve, that is what it is there for.

K

Whizzard · July 27, 2006 8:06AM

Procedural issues aside, (failure to establish a reserve) I think its completely appropriate. You'll pay the juice and get your coin back. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that's not shilling!

LindeDad · July 27, 2006 8:07AM

I agree that this would be shilling. Set reserves or just take the hit.

Russ · July 27, 2006 8:10AM

<< << No. If the consignor were worried about it, they should have established a reserve. Not doing so and then bidding on their own coin is shilling.

Russ, NCNE >>

Is it shilling if you are the one who ends up with the coin? >>

Since it is not possible to know in advance if the consignor's bid would win the lot, yes, it is shilling.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · July 27, 2006 8:13AM

PS: And yes, I am aware that it goes on all the time with auction houses. That fact doesn't make it right.

Russ, NCNE

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 8:20AM

Almost every time you see lot numbers skipped in the prices realized, it's a buy back. The auction company doesn't care. They get both commissions. Potential buyers shouldn't complain. They didn't want it as much as the owner wanted it.

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 8:31AM

<< PS: And yes, I am aware that it goes on all the time with auction houses. That fact doesn't make it right.

Russ, NCNE >>

Since there is about a 300 year tradition of allowing owners to bid on their items (goes back to when
property was auctioned on the courthouse steps to satisfy liens...the owner was allowed to buy it back) and auction laws
specifically mention that the consigner has a right to participate unless it's advertised as an ABSOLUTE auction...and auction
terms mention this right as well....what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?"

Whizzard · July 27, 2006 8:32AM

<< PS: And yes, I am aware that it goes on all the time with auction houses. That fact doesn't make it right.

Russ, NCNE >>

C'mon Laura help me out! Is this shilling?

Russ · July 27, 2006 8:35AM

<< what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?" >>

The only standard I care about. My own personal ethical code.

Russ, NCNE

dizzyfoxx · July 27, 2006 8:37AM

It's perfectly ok.

LindeDad · July 27, 2006 8:37AM

<< what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?" >>

Could I harbor to guess that it might be the same standard that gets people kicked off of eBay?

Musky1011 · July 27, 2006 8:37AM

why waste your time selling it then!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 8:39AM

<< 

<< what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?" >>

Could I harbor to guess that it might be the same standard that gets people kicked off of eBay? >>

Ebay is not a traditional auctioneer and claims auction law does not apply to them.

Russ · July 27, 2006 8:39AM

<< << what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?" >>

Could I harbor to guess that it might be the same standard that gets people kicked off of eBay? >>

Geez, now you've opened the door for him to pop off with all his lame arguments about why eBay is wrong.

Edit: I see he's already started.

Russ, NCNE

Whizzard · July 27, 2006 8:40AM

<< 

<< what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?" >>

Could I harbor to guess that it might be the same standard that gets people kicked off of eBay? >>

Sometimes thats appropriate, sometimes its a badge of honor.

au58 · July 27, 2006 8:40AM

It's not shilling, but it is evidence that you screwed up somewhere. If you overvalued the coin, it doesn't make much sense to exacerbate the problem by paying both the commission and the buyer's premium.

DickyBetz · July 27, 2006 8:48AM

I should mention that this is a hypothetical.

carl · July 27, 2006 8:50AM

<< No I do not think it is OK...take the loss and move on. If you wanted to get a certain price, you should have set a reserve, that is what it is there for.

K >>

Agree with that.

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 8:58AM

<< It's not shilling, but it is evidence that you screwed up somewhere. If you overvalued the coin, it doesn't make much sense to exacerbate the problem by paying both the commission and the buyer's premium. >>

Example (based on a real situation) You have a PCGS large cent where no variety is attributed, but
the seller is told by a friend that it's a rare variety worth maybe 10 times a common variety. One Early American
Copper expert has detected the variety and has the high bid, but probably bid just 20% of the true value, thinking that
no one else will discover it and if he can't rip stuff off, he is not interested anyway.

I know you can argue that the owner didn't do his "homework" but should he be forced to let his property go
for $10,000 less than it's true value, or pay a few hundred dollars juice to buy it back?

LindeDad · July 27, 2006 9:02AM

<< I should mention that this is a hypothetical. >>

Then I would still say the seller should set the terms he is willing to sell for before consinging/listing or rending the item for sale.

It doesn't matter where or who is running the auction. If you want a minium amount for the coin them set that as the reserve or buy back price up front. Once the auction goes live the owner or any of his agents that bid on it consitutes shilling. This is my opion and if I find a seller is using these practices then I and many others will not be bidding on his items.

This is my opion and like many body parts we all have ours.

19Lyds · July 27, 2006 9:06AM

I'm afraid its shilling since there is no guarantee that the coin wont sell at the owners bid! How many times have you guys touted how you sniped something at the last second? Sheesh! Show some balls!

Lets say my consigned coin is worth $500 and the bids sit at $75 up to the last day of the auction. As owner, I get a creepy feeling about what the coin will hammer at so I drop a $400 bid. Of course, given the auction house bidding policy, my bid only shows up for the minimum over what was currently bid. Say $80. 10 seconds before auction close, my buyer fires up his sniping machine at $450 bucks for the big rip of the night only to end up paying $405 for the coin. I just shill bid my own coin.

Bad news.

raycyca · July 27, 2006 9:19AM

Teletrade has some board members here buying back their own coins ALL the time!! The only thing I don't like about on the big auction houses is you can't see the shill bidding going on. At least E-bay shows you whoms bidding, even though alt IDs are also being used. If you submitted it withoout a reserve, you should just allow it to sell and take a loos. Use this as a learning experience. Good luck! Ray

relayer · July 27, 2006 9:20AM

CarlWohlforth · July 27, 2006 9:25AM

A while back someone who consigned coins to me sniped one of the coins. I didn't think it was a cool thing to do at the time but I didn't say anything about it. He paid eBay and me the appropriate fees. This ended up costing him more than if he had listed the coin with a reserve and it hadn't sold.

Another time a different someone who consigned coins to me asked if he could bid on his coins. I said no, but I could cancel the auction and re-list it with a reserve or higher starting price. He decided to let the auction run its course.

Different venues have different policies regarding this practice.

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 9:37AM

<< 
Lets say my consigned coin is worth $500 and the bids sit at $75 up to the last day of the auction. As owner, I get a creepy feeling about what the coin will hammer at so I drop a $400 bid. Of course, given the auction house bidding policy, my bid only shows up for the minimum over what was currently bid. Say $80. 10 seconds before auction close, my buyer fires up his sniping machine at $450 bucks for the big rip of the night only to end up paying $405 for the coin. I just shill bid my own coin.

Bad news. >>

So you didn't want to sell it for less than $400, and used a legal and accepted method of protecting
your financial interest. This is bad?

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 9:43AM

<< 

<< what standard are you using to justify that it's not "right?" >>

The only standard I care about. My own personal ethical code.

Russ, NCNE >>

As long as you aren't one of those yelling THIEF! LIAR! CHEATER! FRAUD! at someone who is following the
law rather than YOUR own personal ethical code.

19Lyds · July 27, 2006 9:52AM

<< 

<< 
Lets say my consigned coin is worth $500 and the bids sit at $75 up to the last day of the auction. As owner, I get a creepy feeling about what the coin will hammer at so I drop a $400 bid. Of course, given the auction house bidding policy, my bid only shows up for the minimum over what was currently bid. Say $80. 10 seconds before auction close, my buyer fires up his sniping machine at $450 bucks for the big rip of the night only to end up paying $405 for the coin. I just shill bid my own coin.

Bad news. >>

So you didn't want to sell it for less than $400, and used a legal and accepted method of protecting
your financial interest. This is bad? >>

Yes! You affected the outcome of the auction to meet your own unethical needs!

Frankcoins · July 27, 2006 9:57AM

I bought something back once on Teletrade. I bought an 1854 arrows half dime NGC MS64 for $1400 about 1989.
It was described as having "interesting die clashes on the reverse." I decided to resell it about a year
later on Teletrade when wholesale had hit $2000. That time Teletrade described it as "some marks on the reverse."

Since that was before Teletrade had photos, the high bid was only $400!

Oddly enough, after I got it back, I rode that puppy all the way to the ground...the price dropped to $500 in the mid
1990s market slump. I saw this as an opportunity to pick up a twin, same grade, same service, same die clashes for
$450 about 1995. I still have both, and they have recovered to about $1100 (each)

majorbigtime · July 27, 2006 10:52AM

Yeah, it's called a buy back. Some auction houses even promote the feature.

quixeller · July 28, 2006 1:49AM

It figures that you would think shill bidding is ok. I sure do hope you aren't the singer- it would ruin one of my best memories of the 70's.
This really shouldn't be a struggle. You set a reserve or you take what you get. Otherwise it isn't an honest auction, is it, Mr. Expert Collector?
Perhaps you should write to PCGS themselves to find out about "body bags" and how they label them too.

OKbustchaser · July 28, 2006 2:15AM

Yes, it is perfectly fine to. I really don't care who bumps my bid--another bidder, the current owner, or even the potted plant in the corner. If I am willing to pay X dollars then I am willing to pay X dollars.

rwyarmch · July 28, 2006 2:28AM

In quiz format....

EBay Tutorial on Shill Bidding

xphobe · July 28, 2006 2:51AM

It depends on the auction site. On eBay, it's shilling, and prohibited. On Teletrade, it's not - it is called a Buyback Bid, and is perfectly acceptable. Since Teletrade doesn't implement a hidden reserve, Buyback Bids take their place.

The difference is that with Teletrade you physically consign your property to them. If you end up being the high bidder on your own auction you have to pay both the buyer and seller fees to get your property back, so there is a bit of a financial pressure on you NOT to do it. You have to want it back bad enough to eat all the juice. Teletrade doesn't care who pays, as long as they get their money.

eBay, on the other hand, never has physical custody of your property. The deal is completely between the buyer and the seller. If you have your friend shill, eBay has no way to enforce the completion of the sale, which is unfair to other buyers.

coinpictures · July 28, 2006 3:18AM

Pardon my naievete, but what's the difference between bidding to buy back my own coin and bidding to bump up the price because I'm not happy with what it is currently bringing?

The former is ok and the latter is shilling? What's the difference?

IMO it's the same thing, regardless of the intent. I, as the seller, am artificially raising the selling price.

What happens if I consign a coin that I predict will sell at $1,000. At the 11th hour it's only at $200. I figure that to be safe (since I wasn't smart enough to set a reserve initially), I'll just bid $1,300 to buy back the coin. Well, with a few minutes left to go, another bidder (who legitimately wants the coin) bids $1,400. As the seller, I'm ecstatic, but if I were the buyer I'd be pissed as hell if I ever found out about it, since I ended up paying $1,400 + juice for a coin that I might have gotten for $300-400, had the seller not been interfering on his own auction.

Smells like shilling to me, regardless of what perfume you sprinkle on it...

DickyBetz · July 28, 2006 3:35AM

<< It figures that you would think shill bidding is ok. I sure do hope you aren't the singer- it would ruin one of my best memories of the 70's.
This really shouldn't be a struggle. You set a reserve or you take what you get. Otherwise it isn't an honest auction, is it, Mr. Expert Collector?
Perhaps you should write to PCGS themselves to find out about "body bags" and how they label them too. >>

Maybe you should go back and read my post. I never once said that I thought it was okay. Looks like you're going to be a real asset to this board...NOT.

xphobe · July 28, 2006 3:59AM

The word "okay" in the original question is vague. If "okay" means "allowed by the venue's ToS" then the answer is, with eBay it is "not okay", but with Teletrade it is "okay".

In fact, on eBay I don't think it's even possible for a seller to use his id to bid on his own stuff, is it? He would have to use another id, or have a friend do it.

Anyway, it's pointless to worry about what you "could" have gotten it for otherwise. If there's a hidden reserve, you could argue that you "could" have gotten it for less had the reserve not been set. Does that mean reserves are somehow wrong? I don't like them, but that doesn't mean they're "not okay".

How about from the seller's point of view: is it "okay" for bidders to snipe? After all, sniping tends to artificially lower the hammer price. If nobody bids until the last second, that gives an artificially low indication of the number of people bidding on the auction. If you intend to bid, then you are morally obligated to do so as soon as you are aware of your intent!

OKbustchaser · July 28, 2006 4:45AM

<< Pardon my naievete, but what's the difference between bidding to buy back my own coin and bidding to bump up the price because I'm not happy with what it is currently bringing?

The former is ok and the latter is shilling? What's the difference?

IMO it's the same thing, regardless of the intent. I, as the seller, am artificially raising the selling price.

What happens if I consign a coin that I predict will sell at $1,000. At the 11th hour it's only at $200. I figure that to be safe (since I wasn't smart enough to set a reserve initially), I'll just bid $1,300 to buy back the coin. Well, with a few minutes left to go, another bidder (who legitimately wants the coin) bids $1,400. As the seller, I'm ecstatic, but if I were the buyer I'd be pissed as hell if I ever found out about it, since I ended up paying $1,400 + juice for a coin that I might have gotten for $300-400, had the seller not been interfering on his own auction.

Smells like shilling to me, regardless of what perfume you sprinkle on it... >>

Why should I as a buyer at $1400 be upset? I must have been willing to pay that much or I would not have bid that amount. It makes absolutely no difference who pushed my bid to that amount. Whether it was another bidder or the consignor is irrelevant. The bottom line is that as long as at least one other person (regardless of who it is) thinks that the item is worth that amount then at that point in time it is worth that amount. I wouldn't expect anyone to sell it directly to me at a fraction of its value so why should I expect him to in an auction format?

MikeInFL · July 28, 2006 4:58AM

<< 

<< Pardon my naievete, but what's the difference between bidding to buy back my own coin and bidding to bump up the price because I'm not happy with what it is currently bringing?

The former is ok and the latter is shilling? What's the difference?

IMO it's the same thing, regardless of the intent. I, as the seller, am artificially raising the selling price.

What happens if I consign a coin that I predict will sell at $1,000. At the 11th hour it's only at $200. I figure that to be safe (since I wasn't smart enough to set a reserve initially), I'll just bid $1,300 to buy back the coin. Well, with a few minutes left to go, another bidder (who legitimately wants the coin) bids $1,400. As the seller, I'm ecstatic, but if I were the buyer I'd be pissed as hell if I ever found out about it, since I ended up paying $1,400 + juice for a coin that I might have gotten for $300-400, had the seller not been interfering on his own auction.

Smells like shilling to me, regardless of what perfume you sprinkle on it... >>

Why should I as a buyer at $1400 be upset? I must have been willing to pay that much or I would not have bid that amount. It makes absolutely no difference who pushed my bid to that amount. Whether it was another bidder or the consignor is irrelevant. The bottom line is that as long as at least one other person (regardless of who it is) thinks that the item is worth that amount then at that point in time it is worth that amount. I wouldn't expect anyone to sell it directly to me at a fraction of its value so why should I expect him to in an auction format? >>

Because a) the buyer would have gotten in cheaper had the seller not shilled, and b) it is an auction, not a direct sale and if the seller were worried about it going for a fraction of its worth, the seller should have set a reserve.

It is a shill and wrong IMO, any way you cut it...Mike

OKbustchaser · July 28, 2006 5:08AM

He set a reserve. That reserve was his bid. There is absolutely no difference.

19Lyds · July 28, 2006 5:16AM

This is true but it was done after the fact! Either grow some cajones or sell at fixed price!

Edited to add: There's an old saying: If you don't want to run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch!

MikeInFL · July 28, 2006 5:23AM

<< He set a reserve. That reserve was his bid. There is absolutely no difference. >>

There is a difference. A reserve is disclosed as such, a shill bid is not disclosed as the seller's reserve. While there may be no difference in the final hammer, there is a huge difference in terms of transparency and honesty...Mike

VamGuy · July 28, 2006 6:45AM

<< 

<< He set a reserve. That reserve was his bid. There is absolutely no difference. >>

There is a difference. A reserve is disclosed as such, a shill bid is not disclosed as the seller's reserve. While there may be no difference in the final hammer, there is a huge difference in terms of transparency and honesty...Mike >>

While I'm not taking a side to this discussion, explain how a hidden(aka secret) reserve (the only kind used on eBay) is different from a sellers bid.

Coxe · July 28, 2006 6:54AM

Depends on how you buy it back. Reserves are the most usual way to do this. I have missed a cutoff before on reserves and putin a buyback at Heritage. That is the correct way to do this when it is available to you. You are not mixed in with the regular bidders. If those bidders fail toreach your buyback, you owe seller and buyer fees at the level of the increment above the winning bid that fell short. You still own the coin. The bidders are in the blind and perhaps one woud have gone higher to match your buyback. It is not shilling. At no time is your buyback influencing the normal course of bidding. A reserve can do that though.

BigTom · July 28, 2006 7:21AM

<< Yes, it is perfectly fine to. I really don't care who bumps my bid--another bidder, the current owner, or even the potted plant in the corner. If I am willing to pay X dollars then I am willing to pay X dollars. >>

Well said and worth reading again.

Is it okay to buy your own coin at auction if you think it is going to hammer at too low of a price?

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