I Personally Think It's Misleading: Why Is It OK For Heritage To Quote/Include The PCGS Price Guide

RBinTex · July 25, 2006 4:05AM

... graded coins but any eBay seller that does the same thing is instantly labeled a slimeball?

As I said, I PERSONALLY think the practice is sleazy - BY ANYONE & I'm not defending it AT ALL.

PerryHall · July 25, 2006 4:26AM

Its call HYPE!!! One of the many services provided their consignors.

ziggy29 · July 25, 2006 4:33AM

That's a fair point, but in Heritage's defense, they provide pricing references from several different sources. Most of the fly-by-nighters on the Bay list ONLY the PCGS guide, and they use it for stuff like ICG MS-70s.

I'd be fine with it if they added some verbiage to the effect that the PCGS guide prices are intended primarily for PCGS coins.

tradedollarnut · July 25, 2006 4:37AM

<< That's a fair point, but in Heritage's defense, they provide pricing references from several different sources. Most of the fly-by-nighters on the Bay list ONLY the PCGS guide, and they use it for stuff like ICG MS-70s.

I'd be fine with it if they added some verbiage to the effect that the PCGS guide prices are intended primarily for PCGS coins. >>

And here I thought they were for accurately graded coins...

VamGuy · July 25, 2006 4:38AM

Please let us know where on the PCGS price guide value page it says the prices are ONLY for PCGS graded coins.

In the interest of expedience, I'll help you out...

LINK

VamGuy · July 25, 2006 4:41AM

<< 

<< That's a fair point, but in Heritage's defense, they provide pricing references from several different sources. Most of the fly-by-nighters on the Bay list ONLY the PCGS guide, and they use it for stuff like ICG MS-70s.

I'd be fine with it if they added some verbiage to the effect that the PCGS guide prices are intended primarily for PCGS coins. >>

And here I thought they were for accurately graded coins... >>

Yeah, oddly enough, it's even in black & white right here.

Disclaimer: I apologize for my sarcasm, my local supermarket has failed to restock the kool-aid shelf and I'm running on fumes.

poorguy · July 25, 2006 4:44AM

I Personally Think It's Sleazy, But Why Is It OK For Heritage To Quote/Include The PCGS Price Guide Values For NON-PCGS

Because Heritage lists all of the pricing guide valuations and it's one that people online can easily go look up.

I feel that each coin should have it's value determined by how the coin looks and if it's technically all there for the grade assigned no matter what holder it's in.

However, I've noticed this:

NGC: More overgraded, less undergraded.

PCGS: More undergraded, less overgraded.

So, with the above stated, it would make sense to stick with PCGS coins if you don't know what you are looking at. Less chance of being burned.

raycyca · July 25, 2006 4:52AM

PCGS guide pricing should ONLY be used for PCGS graded coins, PERIOD! NGC coins should be priced by NGC guidelines, or grey/blue sheet. Other coins should be discounted using other sources, such as CoinWorld or Numismatic News pricing. I see PCGS prices used on E-bay for non-PCGS coins.

I have reported a LOT of them to E-bay with hopes they MIGHT actually do something about it. I have also been reporting a LOT of slimeball E-bay sellers using the phrase PCGS 70 price is XXX, on an ICG 69 coin!!! Or, PCGS population is only 6 in 70 DCAM, when it's an NGC coin graded as 69UCAM. My fingers are getting tired typing. But, I hope I can avoid or end SOME of the hyping(?) on E-bay? I wish others would do the same. I bookmarked the reporting link from Mark. THANKS Mark. See? You are NOT the only one trying to make the world a better place! BUT, you ARE an important example for us to follow! Ray

DeusExMachina · July 25, 2006 5:05AM

RB, I agree with you. I am looking to purchase a coin on Heritage that is graded by a non-PCGS TPG. I guess we will see what happens with the final hammer price but either way I think it puts an incorrect context around the coin price/value. (Of course, not in my favor as the buyer).

I don't have a better suggestion; I just think that it is an interesting oberservation. And I agree.

flaminio · July 25, 2006 5:15AM

Heritage shows six separate prices for each coin (including PCGS's). IMHO this does a great service to the buyer. It's a great feature, and I hope Heritage doesn't drop it due to whiners like RBinTex.

What is your eBay ID anyway, RB?

Steve27 · July 25, 2006 5:19AM

IMO the PCGS price guide shouldn't be used for non-PCGS coins or PCGS coins.

RBinTex · July 25, 2006 7:24AM

So the dissenters think that if an eBay seller was selling an ANACS coin, it would be OK to mention the PCGS price guide value AS LONG AS they ALSO listed a few more values like trends, numismedia, etc., e.g., & THEN you wouldn't label THEM as slimeballs?

Also, for all you keyword spammer haters, notice how Heritage slips PCGS in the title for nearly ALL coins so that when you do a search even NGC & ANACS coins pop up? At least Teletrade NEVER does THIS to you.

RYK · July 25, 2006 7:32AM

Heritage shows six separate prices for each coin (including PCGS's). IMHO this does a great service to the buyer. It's a great feature, and I hope Heritage doesn't drop it due to whiners like RBinTex.

I agree, but frankly I hardly notice the CU column at the far end of the chart.

Please give me a head's up for what you are going to complain about tomorrow, so I can do some research tonight.

wayneherndon · July 25, 2006 7:40AM

There is a fine line between providing pricing information as a guide for the buyer to help determine the coins value and trying to deceive the buyer into believing the coin is worth more than it really is. At the moment, I'm at a loss as to the proper words to describe this line. However, I believe Heritage's presentation of the prices of multiple guides as a table of additional information does not cross over the line. Without reference to a specific ebay auction, I will refrain from saying which side of the line they are on. However, I do know the ones you're probably thinking about where the seller references the price in the text and hypes it in such a way as to cause buyers to potential be mislead into believing the offered coin is more valuable than it really is. This, IMHO, cross over the line. On the other hand, I've seen other eBay auctions that didn't offend my sense of this boundary.

Note that in addition to PCGS prices, Heritage also provide NumisMedia prices. NumisMedia is the official NGC price quide and essentially the NGC counterpart to the PCGS price guide. Thus, Heritage provides both PCGS and NGC price guide prices for all coins. They also provide Trends prices. Thus, Heritage provides prices from what most people would consider the three industry leading retail price guides.

Personally, I like the Heritage information. The only think I'd like to see different is to go back to publishing the greysheet price (they did this for awhile a few years ago).

WH

flaminio · July 25, 2006 7:43AM

<< So the dissenters think that if an eBay seller was selling an ANACS coin, it would be OK to mention the PCGS price guide value AS LONG AS they ALSO listed a few more values like trends, numismedia, etc., e.g., & THEN you wouldn't label THEM as slimeballs?

>>

Frankly, I don't label them slimeballs in the first place. I wouldn't have a problem with an eBayer providing several price guides for their coins, including PCGS's.

<< Also, for all you keyword spammer haters, notice how Heritage slips PCGS in the title for nearly ALL coins so that when you do a search even NGC & ANACS coins pop up? At least Teletrade NEVER does THIS to you. >>

Usually done for the pop reports. This information should not be in the subject; I agree.

What was your eBay ID again, RB?

mnmcoin · July 25, 2006 8:46AM

Sleazy is as sleazy does!!!

morris <><

mnmcoin · July 25, 2006 8:48AM

<< Please let us know where on the PCGS price guide value page it says the prices are ONLY for PCGS graded coins.

In the interest of expedience, I'll help you out...

LINK >>

At the top where it says "PCGS price guide" oh and also on the far left of the pricing spreadsheet where it lists the "PCGS" coin #.

morris <><

Whizzard · July 25, 2006 8:52AM

<< Personally, I like the Heritage information. The only think I'd like to see different is to go back to publishing the greysheet price (they did this for awhile a few years ago).

WH >>

And by the way, in probably half the cases, I don't even find the PCGS price guide appropriate for PCGS coins!

tradedollarnut · July 25, 2006 8:57AM

PCGS guide pricing should ONLY be used for PCGS graded coins, PERIOD! NGC coins should be priced by NGC guidelines, or grey/blue sheet.

Here's a surprise - there are lots of coins in other holders that cross or go up a grade [or two or three] at PCGS. The coins don't change when the plastic does, so I am left to believe that the price guide is for coins accurately graded to PCGS standards and not necessarity 'PCGS graded coins ... PERIOD'.

Well, except maybe for those that collect the plastic only and don't give a rat's patootie about the shiny metal thing encased inside....

SUPERCARCOINS · July 25, 2006 9:29AM

<< PCGS guide pricing should ONLY be used for PCGS graded coins, PERIOD! NGC coins should be priced by NGC guidelines, or grey/blue sheet.

Here's a surprise - there are lots of coins in other holders that cross or go up a grade [or two or three] at PCGS. The coins don't change when the plastic does, so I am left to believe that the price guide is for coins accurately graded to PCGS standards and not necessarity 'PCGS graded coins ... PERIOD'.

Well, except maybe for those that collect the plastic only and don't give a rat's patootie about the shiny metal thing encased inside.... >>

Here's a surprise - there are lots of coins in other holders that cross or go up a grade [or two or three] at PCGS.........

are you serious ?? lot`s of coins ??? take a poll and you will find this is far from true

Frankcoins · July 25, 2006 9:50AM

But PCGS says

The prices listed in the PCGS Price Guide are the average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins.

Nothing about being restricted only to PCGS slabs.

Link

keoj · July 25, 2006 10:38AM

Geez.....you have to be kidding.

One, all these prices are just guidelines. As long as two or more are bidding, the market demand establishes the value. I see prices exceed and not reach these published prices all the time.

Two, I am VERY thankful for Heritage in the way they provide data. Its up to the buyer to synthesize this data and determine what the value is.

Three, I see overgraded and undergraded coins in PCGS and NGC holders.

This is not sleezy at all. They provide much more data than any other company, don't knock them for it.

keoj

RBinTex · July 25, 2006 10:43AM

I'd be the 1st to admit there is a vast difference between johnnyscammer selling a PCI 1954 PR68DCAM Lincoln on eBay & quoting the PCGS guide & Heritage doing the same for an NGC graded one.

Of course, the difference between the values of the PCI graded coin and the PCGS one are not that far off from the NGC graded coin and the PCGS graded one - AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE PCGS VALUE:

i.e. the PCI (SEGS, NTC, whoever) coin might be worth about 95-99% of the PCGS price guide value of $9,000 (or $90-$450) while amazingly enough, the NGC one might only be worth just a bit more - maybe 90-95% less - since it will most likely grade (on average) 67CAM at PCGS anyway well over 9 times out of 10 and only be a $400 coin or so. Perhaps 67DCAM on a good day for a whopping 25% of PCGS priceguide value. 68DCAM, 1 shot out of 100 - AT BEST.

It is for examples like THIS that I think the PCGS priceguide is VERY misleading to newbies & the uninformed.

Same holds true for Full Step, Full Band, Full Bell Line, etc, type coins. PCGS is just NOT gonna cross them more than 95% of the time with the same designation. PERIOD.

So, is Heritage (anyone) insulated in these situations, just becaues they quote multiple sources?

tradedollarnut · July 25, 2006 11:48AM

<< 

<< PCGS guide pricing should ONLY be used for PCGS graded coins, PERIOD! NGC coins should be priced by NGC guidelines, or grey/blue sheet.

Here's a surprise - there are lots of coins in other holders that cross or go up a grade [or two or three] at PCGS. The coins don't change when the plastic does, so I am left to believe that the price guide is for coins accurately graded to PCGS standards and not necessarity 'PCGS graded coins ... PERIOD'.

Well, except maybe for those that collect the plastic only and don't give a rat's patootie about the shiny metal thing encased inside.... >>

Here's a surprise - there are lots of coins in other holders that cross or go up a grade [or two or three] at PCGS.........

are you serious ?? lot`s of coins ??? take a poll and you will find this is far from true >>

Yes, I'm serious. And I don't need no stinkin' poll to find out anything. I personally know of dozens and dozens of coins that were in other holders that are now points [1-3] higher in PCGS holders.

The price guide is for properly graded coins. As Keoj says, there are overgrades, undergrades and properly graded coins in ALL the top tier holders.

ER · July 25, 2006 3:01PM

RBinTex, please find something legitimate to whine about, will you?

TwoSides2aCoin · July 25, 2006 4:09PM

I won a 1983 DDR today. From the pictures, how would you grade it ?

I could care less what others do, what they say, which price guide they quote or tactics they use to woo.

Since when don't we hold the entire NUMISMATIC world to the same standard ? I do not see this as WHINING or CRYBABY stuff, rather a valid point. Why the personal attack ?
Ebay auction results.... Keyword : "doubled die"

My opinion of the coin I won for $227.50 is that it's worth over 700 ...
Am I wrong if I sell it on ebay as a RAW MS66 RD and quote the PCGS price guide as an MS67 ? Or, should I send it in first to PCGS before I can list it back on ebay and quote PCGS price guides and past sales of comparable examples, thus claiming that even though the price guide says 675, similar examples have sold for 725 and 850, respectively ?

Who cares ? Maybe it's an MS67 RD..... and worth thousands according to PCGS price guides !
If we don't have a standard, we have SUBJECTIVITY... and if we have subjectivity.... WE HAVE NO STANDARD

I guess since we have lowered our interpretation of grade and value to a sliding scale of subjectivity, most are doomed to failure and dastardly deeds anyway.

If this is the direction our hobby is taking then collectors should be very cautious. Every dealer is spurious and every auction house is without RULE.
The ANA, PNG, and every publication of NUMISMATICS is a farce if the author is out of line in asking such questions. This industry is in trouble when there is a GOOD OLD BOY SYNDROME.

relayer · July 25, 2006 6:58PM

I'm not sure I care, but I would say Heritage buyers would be more sophisticated then rubes on eBay.

So it becomes more useful information

etexmike · July 25, 2006 10:42PM

<< I'm not sure I care, but I would say Heritage buyers would be more sophisticated then rubes on eBay.

So it becomes more useful information >>

I find the information on the Heritage site to be very useful. I never pay any attention to it on ebay as a guide for my bids.

-----------

etexmike

I Personally Think It's Misleading: Why Is It OK For Heritage To Quote/Include The PCGS Price Guide

Comments

Leave a Comment