Scarce Date Gold

bidask · July 9, 2006 8:23AM

I recognize that collecting these coins is not in everyone's budget but there appears to me some value in the pricing of scarce date gold, both from intrinsic value ( gold value) and rarity/availability. Any thoughts?

RYK · July 9, 2006 8:55AM

Here's how I view it:

There's rare date gold, and there is generic gold. In between, there is no man's land. There are many coins that are far more scarce than the generics (but not as rare or popular as the sexy dates, branch mint dates, etc.) that sell at a modest premium to generics. One would think that they should sell for more, but they do not, have not, and probably never will (my opinion). If you enjoy picking off better dates for fun, have at it, but do not expect there to be a sudden interest in slightly better date pieces.

bidask · July 9, 2006 9:07AM

<< Here's how I view it:

There's rare date gold, and there is generic gold. In between, there is no man's land. There are many coins that are far more scarce than the generics (but not as rare or popular as the sexy dates, branch mint dates, etc.) that sell at a modest premium to generics. One would think that they should sell for more, but they do not, have not, and probably never will (my opinion). If you enjoy picking off better dates for fun, have at it, but do not expect there to be a sudden interest in slightly better date pieces. >>

I am think more of the low mintage stuff with relatively low pops that seem to have pricing value.

RYK · July 9, 2006 9:13AM

I am think more of the low mintage stuff with relatively low pops that seem to have pricing value.

Lots of these are coins that garner little interest in the numismatic market for rare date gold collectors. How about some examples?

bidask · July 9, 2006 9:14AM

<< Here's how I view it:

There's rare date gold, and there is generic gold. In between, there is no man's land. There are many coins that are far more scarce than the generics (but not as rare or popular as the sexy dates, branch mint dates, etc.) that sell at a modest premium to generics. One would think that they should sell for more, but they do not, have not, and probably never will (my opinion). If you enjoy picking off better dates for fun, have at it, but do not expect there to be a sudden interest in slightly better date pieces. >>

Actually, given where gold prices are now, I think the scarcer dates, as you described as the no-man's land, is exactly where the opportunity is. You can also tell by the response to this thread!

bidask · July 9, 2006 9:18AM

<< I am think more of the low mintage stuff with relatively low pops that seem to have pricing value.

Lots of these are coins that garner little interest in the numismatic market for rare date gold collectors. How about some examples? >>

I just bought the 1870 s ICG EF 45 Lib 10 in the heritage auction. Without regard to whether the grade is correct, the mintage is 8000 and the pop figures are relatively low. There are tons of examples like that out there.

clw54 · July 9, 2006 9:24AM

A lot of gold coins generate little interest because there are so many scarce dates and few people even consider putting together a set. I'd say to collect them if you like them, but it's unlikely a large number of people will come along in the future and start enthusiastically seeking them out. So buy them if you like them, but don't have a lot of expectations other than enjoying having them in your collection. Just my opinion, of course.

bidask · July 9, 2006 9:28AM

<< A lot of gold coins generate little interest because there are so many scarce dates and few people even consider putting together a set. I'd say to collect them if you like them, but it's unlikely a large number of people will come along in the future and start enthusiastically seeking them out. So buy them if you like them, but don't have a lot of expectations other than enjoying having them in your collection. Just my opinion, of course. >>

I agree they are out of reach pricewise to most collectors,and it is true they may not garner interest for that reason but that is why there is opportunity. In other words, skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been.

RYK · July 9, 2006 9:28AM

I just bought the 1870 s ICG EF 45 Lib 10 in the heritage auction. Without regard to whether the grade is correct, the mintage is 8000 and the pop figures are relatively low. There are tons of examples like that out there.

I acquired my first gold coin as a gift from my father in 1977. It was an 1890 quarter eagle, mintage 8000 or so. Over the past 29 years, it has appreciated in value approximately 40%. From a financial standpoint, I would have been far better off with a bank Christmas Club account! Buy coins for enjoyment.

bidask · July 9, 2006 9:30AM

<< A lot of gold coins generate little interest because there are so many scarce dates and few people even consider putting together a set. I'd say to collect them if you like them, but it's unlikely a large number of people will come along in the future and start enthusiastically seeking them out. So buy them if you like them, but don't have a lot of expectations other than enjoying having them in your collection. Just my opinion, of course. >>

Also like you said, there are alot of scarce dates with little interest. Kind of a oxymoron. Also an opportunity to accumulate now!

RYK · July 9, 2006 9:31AM

I agree they are out of reach pricewise to most collectors,and it is true they may not garner interest for that reason but that is why there is opportunity. In other words, skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been.

If SF gold were ever promoted and a lot of collecting interet were generated, you might see some return on your investment. My guess is that there are no more than 10 date collectors of the Liberty eagles series (1838-1907), and if you are lucky, another 10 collectors of SF Liberty Eagles (1854-1907). Most who could afford such a collection would select a coin in higher grade than XF-45.

Collect for enjoyment.

fc · July 9, 2006 9:43AM

bidask, while you have a good idea it does not work out in the
real world.

for some reason some gold coins linger without rabid interest.
prob the set reasons people mentioned above.

TheRaven · July 9, 2006 9:52AM

These coins are no mans land and I think they will always be.....

Gold coins that aren't sexy for some reason (CC, C or D mint) are never going to become that and will likely even if the mintage suggests otherwise skyrocket in price.....

This is the reason some series other then gold are stuck in the same boat.....

Tarmac · July 9, 2006 9:57AM

Most who could afford such a collection would select a coin in higher grade than XF-45.

And this is lost on many. I too when I first started collecting bought low mintage [less than 10,000 or less than 100 known] gold. They were cheap, plentiful and with no competition at auction. Today these coins are worth very little more than what I paid, thank goodness for gold's recent multi year run up!

Nice to have a few for a collection but be aware they make for a lousy investment and always will.

bidask · July 9, 2006 9:58AM

<< I agree they are out of reach pricewise to most collectors,and it is true they may not garner interest for that reason but that is why there is opportunity. In other words, skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been.

If SF gold were ever promoted and a lot of collecting interet were generated, you might see some return on your investment. My guess is that there are no more than 10 date collectors of the Liberty eagles series (1838-1907), and if you are lucky, another 10 collectors of SF Liberty Eagles (1854-1907). Most who could afford such a collection would select a coin in higher grade than XF-45.

Collect for enjoyment.

>>

This stuff would be tough to promote cause there is not much of it. But if new money is coming into the market ( and that includes me), maybe its only going to the stuff that is being promoted. That spells OPPORTUNITY. Example, I would rather buy scarce date gold at where it is currently priced than spend the same money on Morgan $'s.

clw54 · July 9, 2006 10:00AM

<< 

<< A lot of gold coins generate little interest because there are so many scarce dates and few people even consider putting together a set. I'd say to collect them if you like them, but it's unlikely a large number of people will come along in the future and start enthusiastically seeking them out. So buy them if you like them, but don't have a lot of expectations other than enjoying having them in your collection. Just my opinion, of course. >>

Also like you said, there are alot of scarce dates with little interest. Kind of a oxymoron. Also an opportunity to accumulate now!

>>

I actually like having affordable low mintage coins. There is a coolness factor to them. The only thing I disagree with are the expectations. Collect for the sheer enjoyment, rather than accumulating with the expecation of being ahead of a curve that probably won't happen.

RYK · July 9, 2006 10:06AM

Example, I would rather buy scarce date gold at where it is currently priced than spend the same money on Morgan $'s.

I would rather buy horse manure than Morgans

, but that does not mean I am loading up on it, either.

bidask · July 9, 2006 10:19AM

<< I agree they are out of reach pricewise to most collectors,and it is true they may not garner interest for that reason but that is why there is opportunity. In other words, skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been.

If SF gold were ever promoted and a lot of collecting interet were generated, you might see some return on your investment. My guess is that there are no more than 10 date collectors of the Liberty eagles series (1838-1907), and if you are lucky, another 10 collectors of SF Liberty Eagles (1854-1907). Most who could afford such a collection would select a coin in higher grade than XF-45. The question is WHY is there such few collectors? If there is new money coming, and the prices have risen so little, and gold prices in general are rising, seems to me this is an area for investment value and yes enjoyment.

Collect for enjoyment.

>>

bidask · July 9, 2006 10:24AM

<< bidask, while you have a good idea it does not work out in the
real world.

for some reason some gold coins linger without rabid interest.
prob the set reasons people mentioned above. >>

Whats the reason? Other than affordability maybe. It does not work out in the real world until it does work out. The period inbetween spells opportunity. Is this industry so dependent on 'promoting' sectors. If so, there is alot of overpriced stuff out there and underpriced areas ( like scarce date gold).

RYK · July 9, 2006 10:43AM

Is this industry so dependent on 'promoting' sectors...

Coin pricing is a function of supply and demand. Demand is a function of popularity. Unpopular coins, no matter how scarce, are relatively inexpensive. Other than promoting an unpopular coin, how else would you expect an 1870-S $10 to become popular? Are hundreds of Morgan-buying, Frankie-buying, and IHC-buying collectors going to suddenly awake one morning and decide that their collection is incomplete without an 1870-S eagle?

Edit: I won't keep arguing the point. If you choose to collect SF eagles (or low pop, unpopular gold coins) for your enjoyment, I think it is a terrific idea. You get a lot of enjoyment bang for your buck. Though you have not mentioned the "I" word, it certainly is implied in some of your comments. If that is a significant reason for moving in this direction, I would be careful and have modest expectations in your shoes. I will say no more. Good luck!

bidask · July 9, 2006 10:46AM

<< Most who could afford such a collection would select a coin in higher grade than XF-45.

And this is lost on many. I too when I first started collecting bought low mintage [less than 10,000 or less than 100 known] gold. They were cheap, plentiful and with no competition at auction. Today these coins are worth very little more than what I paid, thank goodness for gold's recent multi year run up!

Nice to have a few for a collection but be aware they make for a lousy investment and always will. >>

Sounds like the main reason is affordability and maybe collectability. But it also sound like the proverbial "The Emperor has no Clothes".

coinkat · July 9, 2006 11:04AM

10 Libs are very under appreciated and there are reasons... putting together a complete set in a grade EF45 and higher is just not possible unless one has unlimited resources. Think of the rare dates and those dates that most collectors don't even know are rare and what the cost would be to put a no motto and motto set together.

For example, most collectors don't appreciate the rarity of the 1843 10 Lib in grade AU and higher. On the other hand, eveyone appreciates and knows the rarity of the 1864-s or the 1849-o.

I tend to disagree that the series will always be dormant because interest will come as others are priced out of coins that already have the following.

If someone respected wrote a book on Philadelphia gold, the ballgame would change and I would even venture to say there would be some attitude changes about Philadelphia gold

bidask · July 9, 2006 11:09AM

<< 10 Libs are very under appreciated and there are reasons... putting together a complete set in a grade EF45 and higher is just not possible unless one has unlimited resources. Think of the rare dates and those dates that most collectors don't even know are rare and what the cost would be to put a no motto and motto set together.

For example, most collectors don't appreciate the rarity of the 1843 10 Lib in grade AU and higher. On the other hand, eveyone appreciates and knows the rarity of the 1864-s or the 1849-o.

I tend to disagree that the series will always be dormant because interest will come as others are priced out of coins that already have the following.

If someone respected wrote a book on Philadelphia gold, the ballgame would change and I would even venture to say there would be some attitude changes about Philadelphia gold >>

I agree. Especially your comment that as "others are priced out of coins that already have the following".

coinkat · July 9, 2006 11:16AM

At the risk of sounding like a broken record... look for original examples and avoid those that have been dipped out.

DaveG · July 9, 2006 11:18AM

bidask:

Welcome Aboard! You should definitely visit the Southern Gold Society's website and read the articles on Doug Winter's website!

It's true that Liberty Head gold is a challenging and under-appreciated series (except for the "fancy" mintmarks, like "C", "D" and "CC") and that mintages really have no meaning (due to the huge amount of meltings that have occurred over the past century and a half) and that very, very few people try to put together a full set of any denomination (due to the length of the series and number of high-priced coins in most of the denominations) - but I think they're very cool coins because you can get a lot of rare coin "bang for your buck" and you can gain a lot of knowledge in an area few other collectors are knowledgable about (how often can other collectors say that?).

I think it's a lot of fun to buy a much rarer coin for only a little more than a common-date coin.

On the other hand, I don't expect very many (or even any) other collectors to share my enthusiasm, which is nice when I'm buying, but somewhat less fun when I sell.

bidask · July 9, 2006 12:11PM

<< At the risk of sounding like a broken record... look for original examples and avoid those that have been dipped out. >>

appreciate the advice

Longacre · July 9, 2006 12:13PM

<< bidask:

Welcome Aboard! You should definitely visit the Southern Gold Society's website and read the articles on Doug Winter's website!

It's true that Liberty Head gold is a challenging and under-appreciated series (except for the "fancy" mintmarks, like "C", "D" and "CC") and that mintages really have no meaning (due to the huge amount of meltings that have occurred over the past century and a half) and that very, very few people try to put together a full set of any denomination (due to the length of the series and number of high-priced coins in most of the denominations) - but I think they're very cool coins because you can get a lot of rare coin "bang for your buck" and you can gain a lot of knowledge in an area few other collectors are knowledgable about (how often can other collectors say that?).

I think it's a lot of fun to buy a much rarer coin for only a little more than a common-date coin.

On the other hand, I don't expect very many (or even any) other collectors to share my enthusiasm, which is nice when I'm buying, but somewhat less fun when I sell. >>

Well said, Mr. G.

bidask · July 9, 2006 12:17PM

<< bidask:

Welcome Aboard! You should definitely visit the Southern Gold Society's website and read the articles on Doug Winter's website!

It's true that Liberty Head gold is a challenging and under-appreciated series (except for the "fancy" mintmarks, like "C", "D" and "CC") and that mintages really have no meaning (due to the huge amount of meltings that have occurred over the past century and a half) and that very, very few people try to put together a full set of any denomination (due to the length of the series and number of high-priced coins in most of the denominations) - but I think they're very cool coins because you can get a lot of rare coin "bang for your buck" and you can gain a lot of knowledge in an area few other collectors are knowledgable about (how often can other collectors say that?).

I think it's a lot of fun to buy a much rarer coin for only a little more than a common-date coin.

On the other hand, I don't expect very many (or even any) other collectors to share my enthusiasm, which is nice when I'm buying, but somewhat less fun when I sell. >>

Thanks for sharing the Southern Gold Society Website. I like buying great coins when others are not buying , especially rarer coins that sell little more than common. If you don't have to sell, don't sell. What else would you trade up too?

TwoSides2aCoin · July 9, 2006 12:26PM

While I agree that one should collect for fun, RYK....

I must admit, if I didn't see the opportunity to make a buck at collecting, I don't think I'd do it !

bidask · July 9, 2006 12:38PM

<< bidask:

Welcome Aboard! You should definitely visit the Southern Gold Society's website and read the articles on Doug Winter's website!

It's true that Liberty Head gold is a challenging and under-appreciated series (except for the "fancy" mintmarks, like "C", "D" and "CC") and that mintages really have no meaning (due to the huge amount of meltings that have occurred over the past century and a half) and that very, very few people try to put together a full set of any denomination (due to the length of the series and number of high-priced coins in most of the denominations) - but I think they're very cool coins because you can get a lot of rare coin "bang for your buck" and you can gain a lot of knowledge in an area few other collectors are knowledgable about (how often can other collectors say that?).

I think it's a lot of fun to buy a much rarer coin for only a little more than a common-date coin.

On the other hand, I don't expect very many (or even any) other collectors to share my enthusiasm, which is nice when I'm buying, but somewhat less fun when I sell. >>

librtyhead · July 9, 2006 1:07PM

The state quarter program was a nice boost to the coin community.We may see many more collectors in the future that move on to bigger and better things,in the future I see more interest in the hobby you never know what will be the next big thing,years ago a toned coin was considered "ugly" now look at them!

bidask · July 9, 2006 1:10PM

<< The state quarter program was a nice boost to the coin community.We may see many more collectors in the future that move on to bigger and better things,in the future I see more interest in the hobby you never know what will be the next big thing,years ago a toned coin was considered "ugly" now look at them! >>

Wayne Gretsky always skated to where the puck was going, not to where it had been!

TheRaven · July 9, 2006 9:13PM

There can and is a difference between a toned coin and gold coins.....

I picked up a 1959P Roosevelt a week ago with a completely blue toned obverse and only purchased it because of the toning, the cost $2.25.....

Cheapest I ever got a US gold coin was $350 for a 1905 $10 PCGS 62.....

Now granted I could get a cheaper US gold coin, but the not one for $2.25.....

bidask · July 14, 2006 12:08PM

<< 

<< I am think more of the low mintage stuff with relatively low pops that seem to have pricing value.

Lots of these are coins that garner little interest in the numismatic market for rare date gold collectors. How about some examples? >>

I just bought the 1870 s ICG EF 45 Lib 10 in the heritage auction signature auction 407. Without regard to whether the grade is correct, the mintage is 8000 and the pop figures are relatively low. There are tons of examples like that out there. >>

Say RYK, ...... I am curious to know if you had a chance to examine the box of gold for auction yet and if you saw many doctored coins? Also, have you taken a peak at LOT 1642 at the current Bowers and Merena auction in Baltimore? I am feeling real good with my purchase at the Heritage auction.

RYK · July 14, 2006 12:36PM

Say RYK, ...... I am curious to know if you had a chance to examine the box of gold for auction yet and if you saw many doctored coins?

Yes, and sadly yes. The coin that I was hoping to like and buy was both puttied and oranged...and in a PCGS XF-45 older holder.

Scarce Date Gold

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