Lyman Bostock autographed 1978 Topps.

RedHeart54 · September 21, 2005 1:33AM

I was outbid early but I continued to follow this auction to the end. Has there always been a "following" of signed Lyman Bostock material? I realize he suffered an early (and violent) death and considering he died in 1978, this particular card may have even more meaning. I could be wrong, but $263 seems like a good buy. Any thoughts?

Lyman Bostock 1978 Topps PSA/DNA

packCollector · September 21, 2005 1:44AM

I did not know much about him so I just went and looked it up and found the below. You read this and then know why we live in such a violent society. the court system was/is pathetic

» September 23, 1978: The Angels 27-year-old OF Lyman Bostock, a .311 lifetime hitter, is killed by a shotgun blast while riding in a car in Gary, IN. The shot was meant for one of the other passengers in the car.

» June 20, 1980: Leonard Smith, the man who killed Angels outfielder Lyman Bostock with a shotgun blast on September 23, 1978, but was later acquitted of the crime by reason of insanity, is released from Logansport State Hospital and allowed to return to his home in Gary, IN, because psychiatrists say he is no longer mentally ill.

Abbysdaddy61903 · September 21, 2005 2:06AM

I guess as far as the winning bid is concerned it's all about supply and demand. As well as desirability of the autographs. How many Lyman Bostock autographs have you seen available on the market? Other than this one. I have known of one more. Another signed card, Offered by Kevin Keating of Quality Autographs of Virginia. (www.qualityautographs.com)

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

p.s. MUCH agreed, with pack collector, our court systems TRULY ARE PATHETIC! ALL 50 states should have the death penalty! Two thumbs up to the great states of California and Texas.

baseballfanatic · September 21, 2005 2:07AM

I think the price was for a couple of people trying to complete a Topps autographed set because a real nice Lyman Bostock postcard slabbed with PSA/DNA went for 51.00 about a month ago. Really good looking piece, but I'll wait for one to slip through the cracks for 35.00.........

dgbaseball · September 21, 2005 2:08AM

Thoughts?

Rather morbid if you ask me. And a sad commentary on our industry that people would spend so much collecting such a thing. Talk about profiteering off a trajedy. Unless the Lyman Bostock fanclub is larger than I know of... I'd honestly never heard of him until I read this thread. I understand there is additional value in autographs of dead people, as there are obviously limited supplies. But clearly the value here is due 100% to the fact that he died like he did. Morbid.

baseballfanatic · September 21, 2005 2:14AM

Bostock was truly one of a kind. When he struggled the first month of his new contract with the Angels, he called owner Gene Autry and offered to return his first months salary. When Autry refused, he donated it to charity. I'll always hold a great deal of respect for Lyman Bostock

TimeMachine · September 21, 2005 2:14AM

hahaha... this lunatic shot and killed a man with a shotgun, and then was allowed to return to his home... gotta love our legal system, huh?

baseballfanatic · September 21, 2005 2:15AM

<< hahaha... this lunatic shot and killed a man with a shotgun, and then was allowed to return to his home... gotta love our legal system, huh? >>

Its only legal if you are insane...

mikeschmidt · September 21, 2005 2:37AM

Tough to say. There is some added value for a 1978 Topps autographed set collector [he is obviously key to the set] and that it is one of the last autographs he signed. But, that being said, a Bostock autograph just does not command that sort of premium regularly. It's a neat novelty item. But unless I was putting together a 1978 Topps auto. set - I would rather buy a regular Bostock autograph and a nice deceased HOF signature, for example.

ArnyVee · September 21, 2005 2:40AM

That sure was a quick cure. Two years and everything is fine for someone that was so "insane" that they used a shotgun to blast a car and kill a man. Wow, our hospitals sure do work miracles sometimes.

Pathetic.

pandrews · September 21, 2005 2:49AM

<< Thoughts?

Rather morbid if you ask me. And a sad commentary on our industry that people would spend so much collecting such a thing. Talk about profiteering off a trajedy. >>

??? wtf?

RedHeart54 · September 21, 2005 3:03AM

I wasn't aware there was a bidding war between two registry collectors. That explains a lot.

dgbaseball · September 21, 2005 3:21AM

Morbid - Selling/paying an excessive amount of money for an autograph of a guy solely because he was murdered.

Saddening - There are people in our industry doing so.

Profiteering off a tragedy - He was murdered and people owning his autograph realized, with the publicity of his story, that they could market and sell the autographs for a lot of money, which they certainly could not do before his death. There are thousands of other since-deceased players whose autos wouldn't bring a dime, and unless I'm wrong about his popularity, Mr Bostock would fall into that category had he not tragically been murdered.

Sorry if I was unclear.

baseballfanatic · September 21, 2005 3:28AM

I dont think it is because he was murdered. Lyman falls in the catagory of Tony C, Ken Hubbs, Thurman Munson, etc. He had a career 311 avg and his career was only begining to take off. Just another "what if"..........

dgbaseball · September 21, 2005 3:36AM

Ah, that I did not know (I was serious about never hearing of him before this thread).

Certainly gives me a little more perspective on the auto and value.

RedHeart54 · September 21, 2005 3:45AM

He finished 4th in batting during the '77 season when his teammate Rod Carew won the batting crown.

BTW, Quality Autographs has two autographed '78 Topps Bostocks for $750 apiece. They don't appear to be slabbed.

brianwintersfan · September 21, 2005 4:09AM

<< Certainly gives me a little more perspective on the auto and value. >>

Maybe a little research on your part would be helpful next time before you stick your foot in your mouth!

dgbaseball · September 21, 2005 4:26AM

The limited research I did informed me that he was murdered, his killer was insane and aiming for the woman next to him and later released, and his father was a negro league player. Nothing to indicate his fame or popularity was due to anything more.

Although insightful, responses like ???wtf? that followed my posts didn't do much to explain the situation either.

But now I know. And as Joe taught me, knowing is half the battle. The other half, I'm still working on for next time.

p.s.
I'll admit now, in case it comes up at some point in the future, I have no idea who Brian Winters is/was either, but if a discussion is ever started about his autograph selling for $750, I'll be sure to chime in, foot firmly in mouth...

Stone193 · September 21, 2005 5:03AM

<< But clearly the value here is due 100% to the fact that he died like he did. Morbid >>

dg
I don't understand? The value of his auto is due to limited supply. The manner in which a person leaves the earth is irrelevant IMO.

He has been dead for over 25 yrs. and I would guess that there's more than one person trying to complete an auto card set of some kind - thus the "competition" for the card. The final bid is a function of the competition for the card and has nothing to do with any morbid sense connected with his demise.

Moreover, any time someone meets an untimely death, their material is going to hit the market place and some people are going to rush to buy and overspend. Again, for what ever reason, "market factors" are in play.

If Willie Randolph were to die today and someone offered me a Mike Schmidt auto for my xtra 4X5 auto pic, I don't see anything wrong with accomodating the person. Morbid? No. Just a fact of life. Now, if someone wanted a picture of the aftermath of a gunshot wound? Now that's morbid. Cool but morbid.

mike

mikeschmidt · September 21, 2005 5:14AM

Mike - not sure if I agree [and I'm usually on the same page as you].

High-profile deaths in sports, especially baseball, lead to increased prices for autographed material, all things being equal. That is my experience for sure. Steve Olin and Tim Crews autographed a lot of memorabilia in their day, for example, and their early and untimely deaths has resulted in their autographed today being worth $20 or so.

But a lot of infamous baseball players, and their manner of death, often seems to bring out additional demand. Bostock being a good example. Ray Chapman being the best example. Thurman Munson. Eddie Waitkus autographs still command a premium since he was shot by a fan. Donnie Moore. Len Koenecke is a prime example.

Stone193 · September 21, 2005 5:33AM

Marc
I see your point on some auto's commanding xtra bucks due to "notoriety."

My point, in this discussion actually had more to do with the fact that in many situations, it's neither morbid nor profiteering to engage in the sale of "limited' autos due to very few being available to purchase - this is 27 yrs. after the guy died - unless I'm missing something.

In fact, I was not looking to direct this at dg, as such, just my observation/opinion.

Now, selling stuff the next day with outrageous BIN's? That may fall into the category of profiteering IMO.

Hope this clears my point up.
mike

baseballfanatic · September 21, 2005 5:39AM

I dont think I have ever seen a Len Koenecke Autograph
For some people who might not know a lot about the former NY Giant/Dodger manager McGraw tabbed the kid as a phenom, but eventually released him. Same happened with the Dodgers. The story ends like this (copied and pasted from the baseball library:

Even worse, his teammates began to notice that Koenecke was drinking heavily and that booze brought out some of his less desirable personality defects. For the good of the team, Stengel decided to release him during a mid-September road trip.

Being cut loose prompted another drinking binge, and the intoxicated Koenecke caught an American Airlines flight heading north from St. Louis. By the time the plane reached Detroit, Koenecke had been ordered off; during the flight, he had knocked down a flight attendant. Undeterred, the outfielder chartered a small plane to take him to Buffalo, but over Canada another fight broke out between Koenecke, the pilot, and another passenger.

Initial reports indicated that Koenecke was confronted by the other passenger after suddenly grabbing the controls from the pilot's hands, but rumors spread that the former outfielder had made unwanted advances towards the two men. Whatever the case, it took fifteen minutes for the two to finally subdue the outfielder. He died instantly when the pilot slugged him over the head with a fire extinguisher.

jrinck · September 21, 2005 5:40AM

The rarity of a 1978 autograph of Lyman Bostock is only part of the story.

When someone who you know (or just know of) dies suddenly, you instantly reflect on your own mortality. Anyone who holds a 1978 autograph of Lyman Bostock is holding an item that was signed very close to when he left this Earth. It gives you a sense of reverence to what he went through, and what you will one day go through. It brings you closer to him than any other signature of his could. You are holding an item that could have brought him the last joy in his life--signing a baseball card for a fan. Here's hoping that the purchaser of this card respects it for what it really is, versus just another piece of the puzzle.

DaddyRich · September 21, 2005 6:28AM

I grew up and am now back in Southern California and my mom used to work at the local police dept. as a receptionist and became good friends with a woman who was dating Lyman Bostock. 1978 was my first year of serious collecting (7 years old). When she told me that her friend was dating a pro ballplayer I freaked out, but calmed down when I had never heard of him. I had always had a dislike for the Angels and Dodgers at the time (why I cannot remember) but had to admit he was a good hitter after reading his stats. Not long after learning this she asked if I had one of his cards so she could show some friends at work and I must have had 9 or 10 of each card that year so I gave her one. I forget about it and one day she comes home from work and shows me that he autographed it for me (my first auto.!) and it was displayed prominently and I began to find things to like about the Angels of the time - Ryan, Grich, etc. Going to dinner one night we met up with Lyman and his girlfriend (who's name I can't recall) and he brought a baseball (fresh from a box) and signed it for me and as a kid it was all a blur. But in retrospect and with the perspective I have gained in meeting all sorts of people with different levels of notoriety, I can honestly make some observations about him. He was one of the most gracious and humble people I have ever met and it was a great privelege to spend even a few minutes around him. He politely listened and talked baseball with me and I was over the moon. Sadly the same mom later was to throw away those great memories in a fit around the time of my parents divorce. Sorry to ramble but i read the thread and it all came back to me in a whirl of memory. I may someday buy the 78 auto just to remember those things. Thanks for your patience everybody and hope I didn't bore you.
Rich

NickM · September 21, 2005 6:57AM

Munson was somewhat of a special case in that he was a superstar who hated to sign autographs on the most popular team in the country. Even so, I agree that his manner and timing of death had an impact on his card values that would not have happened had he simply had a fatal car accident (a la Mike Sharperson, Mike Darr, Joe DeSa, Tim Layana, basketball's Bobby Phills or Malik Sealy, or football's Stacey Toran).

Death due to catastrophic illness seems to have a significant effect on autograph prices - Darryl Kile and football's Eric Turner autographs both sell for high amounts.

For whatever reason, deaths of a few players who died recently under criminal or bizarre circumstances do not seem to have boosted demand for their autographs, including Fred Lane (shot by wife), Gus Polidor (shot by drug dealers), Ivan Calderon (mob hit), and Bo Diaz (satellite dish fell on him). I picked up a PSA certified Lane autographed card from Collectors Edge a couple years ago for less than $5.

Pat Tillman autographs sell for a very high amount, and I don't think they will come down in price. He achieved hero status.

Nick

MooseDog · September 21, 2005 7:06AM

Not to nitpick, but I think I read at the time that Bo Diaz was struck by lightning while installing a satellite dish and/or fell off the roof, contributing to his death. Too lazy to check the facts on this one, but that's what I remember.

CDsNuts · September 21, 2005 7:35AM

Hmmmmmm... How can someone's signature in which there are only a few known copies be authenticated without any doubts? Too many questions around this one for me:

- 1978 card and he died in Sept. '78. This is not a card that is likely to get signed because it has only been out for 6 months or so.

- The condition of the card is way nicer than most 1978's that were busted back then, not to mention that it was autographed meaning it was handled by at least two people (owner and Bystock). It's not like the guy was carrying the card around in spring training in a protective sleeve. No way it goes through a kid's collection, his pocket on the way to the game, Bystock's hands, back in the kid's pocket, and back to the kid's collection at home and stays EX-MT in an era where condition was of little importance.

- Too few known copies of the auto leaving a fairly small basis for comparison. Makes for an easy sig to counterfeit.

I don't know about this one Mulder.

Lee

estang · September 21, 2005 7:41AM

Growing up in Minneapolis suburbs in the 1970s Lyman Bostock was a great Minnesota Twin. I still have a 1977 Topps autographed card of him that I received outside of old Met Stadium one day. It was a real tragedy that occurred. That 1977 Bostock card is probably my favorite baseball card of all time due to its sentimental value, its the first year I collected cards, and the photograph wih the great red/white/blue "TC" helmet.

I remember being very mad when I found out he was traded by then penny-pinching Calvin Griffith, whom in the span of two years let go of:

--- Lyman Bostock
--- Larry Hisle
--- Dan Ford
--- Rod Carew
--- Bert Blyleven

There wasn't much left after that and the Twins went into a literal abyss until 1987, with a short glimpse of a division run in 1985. Lyman Bostock dying was one of my first experience with the loss of human life, and to some degree I resent Calvin Griffith for trading him away, leading to his fate.

Anyway, Bostock was a great player and for the first time since 1978 a baseball card has been issued of him --- 2005 Upper Deck card --- once again in the great red/white/blue "TC" batting helmet...

It was a pleasure to read the recount of the boy growing up in So. Cal and his interaction with Bostock then. The guy attempted to give back his salary to Gene Autry after a very poor first couple months of the season (less than .200) and then wound up finishing with a .296 average that year. A great man!

BTW -- The signature on the card looks legit --- he was consistent in his signature and is very similar to mine...

RedHeart54 · September 21, 2005 9:12AM

<< 1978 card and he died in Sept. '78. This is not a card that is likely to get signed because it has only been out for 6 months or so. >>

He died in late September, probably near or during the playoffs. Cards back then came out in, what, April or May? Seems it's be pretty easy to get a '78 autographed. True, authenticty issues may be questionable considering he didn't have time to sign many autographs but I figure it's easier to authenticate a more contemporary player rather then a turn-of-the-century player.

Speaking of Munson, I can remember an auction a few years back that offered an autographed 1979 Topps card of his. THAT would bring some serious money.

BTW, it's nice that many of you have fond memories of Lyman.

CopperJJ · September 21, 2005 11:37AM

Did anyone copy the pic on that auction, I can't get it to come up. I'd like to see the auto'd 77 mentioned also. If anyone can post.

Great info in the thread also.

RedHeart54 · July 4, 2006 5:05AM

I know this thread is nearly a year old but since I started it I thought I'd update it. Here are the 1978 autographs I've obtained. (The one on the left is a 1978 SSPC. These were produced in 9-card sheets and only distributed at the team's home park.) I've become intreagued by the Bostock story, especially since so few of those in of my general age (late 20s/ early 30s) even know about Bostock. (And I'm talking about guys who follow baseball and are familiar with its history.) I even wonder if a book about him would be of interest to people.

Stone193 · July 4, 2006 5:40AM

Red

I'm a baseball fan and when you brought this up last year - that was the first time I can recollect hearing about him.

I would imagine there's not a ton of his autos floating around.

Did you pick these up on ebay?
thanx for sharing
mike

RedHeart54 · July 4, 2006 6:58AM

Yes, both of them came from Ebay. I bought the SSPC "raw" but having seen several Bostock autos I didn't believe it was fake.

Writer11 · July 4, 2006 7:34AM

Nice Bostock auto and a sad story behind his tragic death.

Just FYI ... Tuff Stuff magazine is going to be publishing an article sometime in the next three months on some of the most elusive, non-Hall of Famer autographs from each major sport.

For post 1970 baseball, I believe Mike Marshall (the relief pitcher), John Denny, and Joe DeSa are discussed.

HoofHearted · July 4, 2006 7:52AM

I remember Lyman playing for the Twins in the mid-70s. It was a bummer seeing his talent leave in free agency -- especially when the Twins had Lyman's 150+ hits per season matched with Carew's 200+ hits! What a lineup...

ralstonpurina · July 4, 2006 8:04AM

Growing up in Orange county, some of my first ballpark memories are of Angel games before his death. I remember early on, my father telling me what a star he was gonna be, then he was killed.

jimq112 · July 4, 2006 10:11AM

<< Bostock was truly one of a kind. When he struggled the first month of his new contract with the Angels, he called owner Gene Autry and offered to return his first months salary. When Autry refused, he donated it to charity. I'll always hold a great deal of respect for Lyman Bostock >>

I was a pretty big Bostock fan too, and remember reading in the morning paper that he had been shot. He had a heck of a future stolen from him.

Did you know his dad was also a player, I think he was a negro leagues star. I have lyman bostock sr's autograph somewhere here.

estang · July 5, 2006 2:05PM

Here's the Lyman Bostock Jr. Master Card Listing (via Beckett)

1 1974 Tacoma Twins Caruso 23 Lyman Bostock
2 1975 Twins Team Issue 4 Lyman Bostock
3 1976 O-Pee-Chee 263 Lyman Bostock
4 1976 Topps 263 Lyman Bostock
5 1976 Twins Postcards 2 Lyman Bostock
6 1977 Burger Chef Discs 54 Lyman Bostock
7 1977 Hostess 102 Lyman Bostock
8 1977 Kellogg's 16A Lyman Bostock ERR-(Dock Ellis photo-on back)
9 1977 Kellogg's 16B Lyman Bostock COR
10 1977 O-Pee-Chee 239 Lyman Bostock
11 1977 Topps 531 Lyman Bostock
12 1977-79 Sportscaster 5503 Lyman Bostock-Baseball
13 1978 Angels Family Fun Centers 4 Lyman Bostock
14 1978 Hostess 145 Lyman Bostock
15 1978 Kellogg's 46 Lyman Bostock
16 1978 RC Cola Cans 69 Lyman Bostock
17 1978 SSPC 270 195 Lyman Bostock Jr.
18 1978 Topps 655 Lyman Bostock
19 2005 Upper Deck Classics 98 Lyman Bostock
20 2005 Upper Deck Classics Gold 98 Lyman Bostock
21 2005 Upper Deck Classics Platinum 98 Lyman Bostock
22 2005 Upper Deck Classics Silver 98 Lyman Bostock

Some other items of note are:

1978 Sporting News (on cover)
Twins programs & yearbooks --- 1977 has some really good picture in it.

estang · July 5, 2006 2:11PM

One other item that would be of great interest to me is the actual photo from the 1978 Topps card in his Twins helmet/uniform. What is on the actual card is air brushed on.

Perhaps it will come up one day on the Topps Vault auctions.

RedHeart54 · July 5, 2006 10:36PM

Thanks for posting that master list. I've thought about starting a collection of his but wasn't sure how many issues there were. Most I can see are available on Ebay though I've only seen the Tacoma card once. Too bad the Angels didn't produce a memorial card in 1979.

Ironmanfan · July 5, 2006 11:45PM

When I think of Bostock (other than his un-timely death), I think of the Sporting News cover from the spring of 1978, which showed him wearing sunglasses with dollar signs painted on the lens'. That picture kind of epitomized the early days of baseball's free agency. Maybe some one can post a scan of it (I no longer own a copy).

RedHeart54 · November 2, 2011 10:19AM

<< One other item that would be of great interest to me is the actual photo from the 1978 Topps card in his Twins helmet/uniform. What is on the actual card is air brushed on. Perhaps it will come up one day on the Topps Vault auctions. >>

Over 5 years later you get your wish.

And if that's not enough Topps Vault also just auctioned the negative that WOULD have been used on Lyman's 1979 card. (Talk about a never-before-seen!)

yankeeno7 · November 2, 2011 11:35AM

Just to chime in....about autograph collection...if you are not really into it you might not understand. There are set collectors out there just like people who put together graded sets or are team collectors. Instead, they collect cards that are signed by the player. As tragic and a persons death can be, its a fact of life and can make what a person collects to be very difficult to find. Just as anything else, price reflects supply and demand. Although, sometimes some tough signed cards slip through the cracks and dont sell for high amounts....just as any other collectible.

On SCN, you see guys all the time trying to complete signed sets. Collecting signed cards is no different than collecting anything else.

I was going to attempt a fully signed 1978 Topps set. It wasnt the Bostock that stopped me because they do pop up from time to time. It was the Munson. That one is super tough and very expensive when it shows up. The Munson is probably the most costly signed card in the set.

BTW, cool Topps vault pics!

estang · November 2, 2011 12:25PM

Thanks for bringing the thread back. I bid on all of his final Topps negative cards & only won the 1977 Hostess card. The 1979 Angels card that never was went for over $300 -- if I recall. I also won this from the same photo shoot from 1978 but it was offered a couple years ago on Topps vault on ebay...

1977 Hostess

1976 Topps

1978 Topps photo shoot (not made to a card)

1977 Topps final negative:

Probstein123 · November 2, 2011 12:53PM

I'd like own a 79 munson signed....the bostock card is also a cool item

RedHeart54 · November 2, 2011 2:13PM

I don't know why Topps elected to go with the photo they did for 1978. Those others are much better shots of him.

Edited to add- I guess it's obvious-- the close up shot better allowed for the airbrush job on his helmet.

Bostockfan10 · October 8, 2013 3:18AM

I would love to see people posting any Lyman Bostock items they might have. I am a big fan.

esquiresports · October 8, 2013 4:17AM

I have a slabbed auto of his from 1978 Topps that I will try to put up later. Not a great signature (quite light), but you can't be too picky with this card because it's almost impossible to find signed. Trying to put together the complete set. Just a few cards short!

Mefer · October 8, 2013 4:52AM

<< Just to chime in....about autograph collection...if you are not really into it you might not understand. There are set collectors out there just like people who put together graded sets or are team collectors. Instead, they collect cards that are signed by the player. As tragic and a persons death can be, its a fact of life and can make what a person collects to be very difficult to find. Just as anything else, price reflects supply and demand. Although, sometimes some tough signed cards slip through the cracks and dont sell for high amounts....just as any other collectible.

On SCN, you see guys all the time trying to complete signed sets. Collecting signed cards is no different than collecting anything else.

I was going to attempt a fully signed 1978 Topps set. It wasnt the Bostock that stopped me because they do pop up from time to time. It was the Munson. That one is super tough and very expensive when it shows up. The Munson is probably the most costly signed card in the set.

BTW, cool Topps vault pics! >>

The 1978 set is my all time favorite set. I have given some thought to tackling the entire set autographed but given its size, I have thought better of it. Also, the Munson as the poster above notes, scared me off as well. I would assume now as well that the Gary Carter may have a premium as well. If I had "Bill Gates money" I would so take this task on. But alas....

Bostockfan10 · October 8, 2013 6:16AM

<< I have a slabbed auto of his from 1978 Topps that I will try to put up later. Not a great signature (quite light), but you can't be too picky with this card because it's almost impossible to find signed. Trying to put together the complete set. Just a few cards short! >>

I love to look at Bostock autographs. I have 10 myself. Im trying to navigate these forums and will work on posting a few pics at some point. I would bet that I have one of the better Bostock collections. Not really sure since I have never really seen another collection.

Lyman Bostock autographed 1978 Topps.

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