How much responsibility do we, as a coin collecting community(everybody in the business), have conce

MrBreeze · June 30, 2006 12:10AM

Are we creating an environment that actually fosters the creation of grading company scams and misrepresentations. As a community, we allow for the term, "grading is subjective." Well, for a lot of individuals, the next line to that mantra is, "So I can grade a coin any grade that I choose." Obviously, there are some guidelines, but when grading is so openly promoted (by all of us) as an opinion (more art than science, etc.), it leads me to believe, that we have some responsibility for, "Hosejob Grading Services" grading guidelines. No one in this business/hobby agrees on one particular grading scale (we cannot even get 100% to support 1-70). To me, that is the perfect environment for a scam. Have we led the lambs to slaughter?

johnsim03 · June 30, 2006 12:29AM

<< Are we creating an environment that actually fosters the creation of grading company scams and misrepresentations. As a community, we allow for the term, "grading is subjective." Well, for a lot of individuals, the next line to that mantra is, "So I can grade a coin any grade that I choose." Obviously, there are some guidelines, but when grading is so openly promoted (by all of us) as an opinion (more art than science, etc.), it leads me to believe, that we have some responsibility for, "Hosejob Grading Services" grading guidelines. No one in this business/hobby agrees on one particular grading scale (we cannot even get 100% to support 1-70). To me, that is the perfect environment for a scam. Have we led the lambs to slaughter? >>

That is just one awesome posting, IMHO...

Do you think that many eBayers could give a twit about the CU forums, and what is
said here? If folks did stop by here every day, and read all of the postings, they
would accumulate a valuable education in a short period of time.

I think this all just boils down to greed. It is the art form of the scam. Buyers are
trying to scam the scammers, and almost always get the short end of the stick. Take a look at
the bidding activity of a reputable eBay seller compared to a bozo who can write good
copy. Sometimes the bidding activity on very questionable items is tremendous!
The honest guy, who describes matter-of-factly without a bunch of pie-in-the-sky is at
a distinct disadvantage, compared to the con artist who has no scruples.

Everyone wants to pay little or nothing for something that is "worth" a lot more. It is the
nature of the beast that people who do not take the time to educate themselves are
willing lambs lead to the slaughter.

Most reputable dealers that I have run into try to educate the people they deal with.
But, as long as the bargain-hunter mentality is there, the con artists will thrive...

John

morgannut2 · June 30, 2006 12:40AM

Before 1986 there were lots of grading scams and scammers. PCGS, NGC, and modified Anacs standards are fairly close, and stopped them. However the scams restarted, and are indirectly supported by EBAY, through scam grading companies.
The true collectors and dealers can not do anything---

MrBreeze · June 30, 2006 4:56AM

Any other thoughts?

OKbustchaser · June 30, 2006 5:17AM

<< Before 1986 there were lots of grading scams and scammers. PCGS, NGC, and modified Anacs standards are fairly close, and stopped them. However the scams restarted, and are indirectly supported by EBAY, through scam grading companies.
The true collectors and dealers can not do anything--- >>

PCGS, NGC, and ANACS have NEVER even slowed down a grade scammer--let alone stopped him. With the advent of the TPG's a whole new generation of "collectors" who couldn't care less about taking the time to actually learn something about their hobby (such as how to grade) has come along and fullfill the role of new sheep

All the TPG's (even the legit ones) have done is make the scammer's job easier not harder. Now, all he has to do is point at the label--there is the grade in black and white--take it or leave it. .

1921obsession · June 30, 2006 7:02AM

Each and every one of us is responsible for the rise of the Alphabet Graders, according to our failure to fight it to the best of our ability. We, including the "legitimate" TPG's, have through inaction allowed them to establish themselves, and like any other infestation, they're going to be a lot harder to remove than they would have been to prevent.

I see the PCGS's and NGC's as having done the equivalent of failing to protect their copyright. Any one of us who has used our developed grading skills (and I count myself among that group) to score a decent coin for cheap in an Alphabet slab has helped facilitate their expansion. Ebay, through their uncompromising focus on their own profit margins, has practically legitimized the Alphabet slabbers on their own.

There is a lot of blame to pass around, and I'm afraid that's all we have left to do. By having repeated the phrase, "but, but, but....grading is subjective...." so many times, to cover so many situations, we have caused it to be the self-fulfilling mantra of coin grading. Had we all, and especially the major TPG's, held to a harder line on grading from the start, it wouldn't be a problem now.

There's only one true solution to the problem, and that's to shift the process of grading to an objective basis. The technology exists, but nobody appears to have the balls to go out and make it happen.

fc · June 30, 2006 7:25AM

personal responsbility trumps all.
it is up to the collector to become wise. no one can
shove wisdom down someone's throat if they do
not care to listen.

the info is here and there for those who care.
everybody else, will just have to sink and drown.
sad but true.

MrEureka · June 30, 2006 7:27AM

I also dislike the phrase "grading is subjective". I prefer "grading is by its nature erratic and unreliable".

OKbustchaser · June 30, 2006 7:35AM

<< I also dislike the phrase "grading is subjective". I prefer "grading is by its nature erratic and unreliable". >>

xphobe · June 30, 2006 7:38AM

<< Ebay, through their uncompromising focus on their own profit margins, has practically legitimized the Alphabet slabbers on their own. >>

Can't blame eBay for that. How many times have you read forum members here say "Never buy anything raw on eBay!"

Grading *is* subjective. Technology will never be able to tell you whether a coin's toning is "appealing".

Sheldon scale is ok with me but it is hubris to use a 70 or 100 point scale, when in reality nobody ever uses more than 26 different numbers. Makes people think it's more of an exact science than it is. Maybe we should have used a decimal system. We are already going down that route with stars on slabs and the ".5"s some people use to describe a coin halfway between two numbers (i.e. "AG-3.5")

TPGs' only value to me is as an authenticator. I could care less whether they think a coin is a 65 or a 66, or whether they think it has "altered surfaces" or not. If I like the coin for the price, I buy it, slab or no.

Gemineye · June 30, 2006 7:41AM

The responsibility of buying is up to you.No one forces you to buy a coin that you don't want.As a knowledge collector time is a factor
that plays an important role in this hoby........the longer your in it the more you learn.
My biggist gripe is we should by American...you make the choice...where you think the value is to be placed ...NO ONE..is forcing to buy
anything.

As far as the TPGs are concerned ..this board does a fair commentary evaluating the TPGs...weeding out the good ones from the bad ones.As far as the system of 1-70 is concerned .... if it aint broke.........it don't need to be fixed.........

slumlord98 · June 30, 2006 7:49AM

Grading is subjective within a narrow range. AU means no wear or rub or whatever in the fields, none! Unc means no wear anywhere. Not today's nonsense where you have to buy a 64 to be sure to get a real unc. Similar narrow standards can be established for other adjectival grades. But then collectors need to tell the services to stick it when they slab a coin as AU with unmistakeable wear in the fields, etc, and not be so willing to accept the party line when PCGS or NGC (especially) tries to tell us otherwise.

In my opinion, the only real advantages offered by the slab mills is authenticity (there would be almost no gold collectors without this feature) and a holder that protects coins. As for grading, they are of precious little use to me within my specialty. If I pursued something new, like commems or gold, it would be different. Gold grading absolutely mystifies me.

leothelyon · June 30, 2006 11:24AM

<< Are we creating an environment that actually fosters the creation of grading company scams and misrepresentations. As a community, we allow for the term, "grading is subjective." Well, for a lot of individuals, the next line to that mantra is, "So I can grade a coin any grade that I choose." Obviously, there are some guidelines, but when grading is so openly promoted (by all of us) as an opinion (more art than science, etc.), it leads me to believe, that we have some responsibility for, "Hosejob Grading Services" grading guidelines. No one in this business/hobby agrees on one particular grading scale (we cannot even get 100% to support 1-70). To me, that is the perfect environment for a scam. Have we led the lambs to slaughter? >>

No! It's actually getting better! The TGS and collectors are continually working together to improve the grading standards for each series. The new collectors who are getting ripped off daily are receiving their educations and coins will be bought and sold for what they are. And if you have high standards, you'll end up with nice coins. My major problem is working around all the expensives to locating quality coins but that has been going on for years.

As for pre 1986, the TGS only perfected the scams with pops and price guides. It's always been about the coin, if you're a coin collector. But the TGS have come in handy for giving reasons to participate in the frenzy but for me, it's always been about the coin.

Leo

How much responsibility do we, as a coin collecting community(everybody in the business), have conce

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