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Lie, Cheat & Steal 2006: PART 2
MrEureka
Posts: 24,680 ✭✭✭✭✭
Part two in the series of hypotheticals. The three questions are in bold font. Your answers, please!
Edited to fix the bolding of the questions. There are only three questions to answer. Sorry!
Sloppy Joe runs a coin shop in Hoboken. It doesn’t look like much but he buys a ton of coins from the public and he’s always in a big hurry to sell them. One afternoon, there are a few collectors hanging out in Joe’s shop, as usual, shooting the breeze and waiting for the next victim to walk in the door. Sure enough, in walks a geezer smelling of booze and tobacco. He opens a crumpled brown paper bag on the counter and out fall a dozen rolls of original bank wrapped silver dollars, each marked with the date and mintmark. Joe opens a couple of the rolls. They seem like nice original rolls so Joe offers $400 a roll, cash. The geezer’s eyes light up, he accepts the cash, and he practically runs out the door on the way back to the local tavern. Sloppy Joe is on a roll!
The collectors don’t miss a beat. Speedy Steve moves in quickly and asks for a price on the roll marked 1882-CC. Joe doesn’t even look at the coins and quotes $3000. Steve takes a quick look and buys them, figuring it has to be a good deal. He pays Joe – cash, of course – and then starts reviewing the roll more closely. To his horror, he realizes that six coins are missing mintmarks. He asks Joe if he can have a break on the price and Joe laughs at him. “Hey, you looked at them before you bought them. Sorry, a deal’s a deal.” Of course Joe knows he can get away with this because he knows how much Steve loves buying coins from him. Still, was Sloppy Joe within his rights to stick Steve with the bad deal? Was he obligated to give Steve some sort of refund?
Hap the Sap is up next and asks for a price on the roll marked 1878-CC. Sloppy Joe figures this time he should look at this roll first and does so quickly. It takes him all of eight seconds to verify that the coins are all 78-CCs, and he assures Hap that the roll is “right”. He quotes $4500 on the roll. Hap takes his time going through the roll and finds only nineteen 78-CCs. The 20th coin is a gem 79-CC. He hands Sloppy Joe $4500, cash, shows him the 79-CC, and sheepishly chuckles. “Hey, Joe, like you said, a deal’s a deal!”
The irony is not lost on Sloppy Joe, but he is not a man to be defeated without a fight. Without missing a beat, he turns to Speedy Steve and hands him six hundred dollar bills. “Steve, I feel bad about that last deal. We negotiated for a roll of 82-CCs and that’s what you should have gotten. Please accept my sincerest apologies.”
Then, Joe turns to Hap and demands that he return the 79-CC. “You didn’t pay for a 79-CC, you don’t get to keep it!” Hap the Sap reluctantly returns the coin. But would he have been within his rights to keep the coin and tell Joe to jump in a lake?
Now that the only two CC rolls are gone, it’s the third collector’s turn to buy a roll. Unfortunately, all that remains is common date rolls. Still, Lucky Louie knows which one he wants. “OK, Joe, how much for the 88-O roll?” Joe, getting less sloppy by the minute, looks carefully at every coin before quoting $500. Louie looks at the roll, wisely keeps his mouth shut, and counts out the cash. He later confides to Steve and Hap that the roll contained eight very choice “Hot Lips” double dies, each worth something north of ten grand. The roll is a potential six-figure score. Hap is angry. “Why should you get to keep those coins if I had to return the 79-CC?” Louie wants to tell Hap that the reason is that Hap is a sap, but instead explains that cherrypicking varieties is an inalienable collector’s right. Hap’s not so sure. If it’s not OK to pick off a coin where the date is misattributed, why should it be OK to pick off a VAM variety? What do you think? Does Louie somehow owe Sloppy Joe part of his windfall?
Edited to fix the bolding of the questions. There are only three questions to answer. Sorry!
Sloppy Joe runs a coin shop in Hoboken. It doesn’t look like much but he buys a ton of coins from the public and he’s always in a big hurry to sell them. One afternoon, there are a few collectors hanging out in Joe’s shop, as usual, shooting the breeze and waiting for the next victim to walk in the door. Sure enough, in walks a geezer smelling of booze and tobacco. He opens a crumpled brown paper bag on the counter and out fall a dozen rolls of original bank wrapped silver dollars, each marked with the date and mintmark. Joe opens a couple of the rolls. They seem like nice original rolls so Joe offers $400 a roll, cash. The geezer’s eyes light up, he accepts the cash, and he practically runs out the door on the way back to the local tavern. Sloppy Joe is on a roll!
The collectors don’t miss a beat. Speedy Steve moves in quickly and asks for a price on the roll marked 1882-CC. Joe doesn’t even look at the coins and quotes $3000. Steve takes a quick look and buys them, figuring it has to be a good deal. He pays Joe – cash, of course – and then starts reviewing the roll more closely. To his horror, he realizes that six coins are missing mintmarks. He asks Joe if he can have a break on the price and Joe laughs at him. “Hey, you looked at them before you bought them. Sorry, a deal’s a deal.” Of course Joe knows he can get away with this because he knows how much Steve loves buying coins from him. Still, was Sloppy Joe within his rights to stick Steve with the bad deal? Was he obligated to give Steve some sort of refund?
Hap the Sap is up next and asks for a price on the roll marked 1878-CC. Sloppy Joe figures this time he should look at this roll first and does so quickly. It takes him all of eight seconds to verify that the coins are all 78-CCs, and he assures Hap that the roll is “right”. He quotes $4500 on the roll. Hap takes his time going through the roll and finds only nineteen 78-CCs. The 20th coin is a gem 79-CC. He hands Sloppy Joe $4500, cash, shows him the 79-CC, and sheepishly chuckles. “Hey, Joe, like you said, a deal’s a deal!”
The irony is not lost on Sloppy Joe, but he is not a man to be defeated without a fight. Without missing a beat, he turns to Speedy Steve and hands him six hundred dollar bills. “Steve, I feel bad about that last deal. We negotiated for a roll of 82-CCs and that’s what you should have gotten. Please accept my sincerest apologies.”
Then, Joe turns to Hap and demands that he return the 79-CC. “You didn’t pay for a 79-CC, you don’t get to keep it!” Hap the Sap reluctantly returns the coin. But would he have been within his rights to keep the coin and tell Joe to jump in a lake?
Now that the only two CC rolls are gone, it’s the third collector’s turn to buy a roll. Unfortunately, all that remains is common date rolls. Still, Lucky Louie knows which one he wants. “OK, Joe, how much for the 88-O roll?” Joe, getting less sloppy by the minute, looks carefully at every coin before quoting $500. Louie looks at the roll, wisely keeps his mouth shut, and counts out the cash. He later confides to Steve and Hap that the roll contained eight very choice “Hot Lips” double dies, each worth something north of ten grand. The roll is a potential six-figure score. Hap is angry. “Why should you get to keep those coins if I had to return the 79-CC?” Louie wants to tell Hap that the reason is that Hap is a sap, but instead explains that cherrypicking varieties is an inalienable collector’s right. Hap’s not so sure. If it’s not OK to pick off a coin where the date is misattributed, why should it be OK to pick off a VAM variety? What do you think? Does Louie somehow owe Sloppy Joe part of his windfall?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
0
Comments
yes
no
Yes.
No.
yes
no
No,Yes, No
The character called Sloppy Joe seems like Larry Stack in the beginning of the story.
Stewart
Yes (the transaction was complete and you said Joe is sloppy and a deal is a deal)
No (the transaction was complete and Joe owes Louie a little more respect next time)
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Yes
No
Chicolini: Mint? No, no, I no like a mint. Uh - what other flavor you got?
Russ, NCNE
Yes, dealer's fault.
No, dealer's had his chance to figure it out.
Self Indulgence | Holey Coins | Flickr Photostream
2. Hap is indeed a sap, he should have said thanks but no thanks, your deal with Steve is your deal--your deal with me was my deal.
3. Tough noogies. next time you buy something take a few minutes and figure out what you bought before you sell it, or end up being part of a hypothetical. Louie sould buy the shop and fire Joe--no one needs a sloppy employee.
Now... that's the lawful answers... the ethical answers and the business smart answers could of course be different
42/92
Yes
No
Somebody should have said "done deal" along the way!!
San Diego, CA
Yes
No
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
It's called the Wild West. Only questions left are who's gonna get shot first and when.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I am always looking for Jefferson Nickel Error. >>
Hi,
Is an ANACS PF66 Cameo 1974-S/S 5c Proof RPM-1 an error?
<< <i>Hmmm - it looks like we might have consensus forming on this one.
It's called the Wild West. Only questions left are who's gonna get shot first and when. >>
Done deal
Done deal
Back when I was still buying, I would just focus on one series at a time, so for the most part, I always knew more about a particular coin than the typical dealer (and thus the rip); a few dealers didn't want my action (especially some of the higher priced/cost dealers - avg quality), but most didn't have the time or desire to examine their inventory & I always brought a couple bricks of cash...
At one show (while I was paying the man), the dealer was noticeably flustered and examined each coin I was buying to see if he had missed something, he then just broke out and said/yelled "I know you're screwing me, I just don't know how!".
I was offended and complimented at the same time.
~g
I'd give you the world, just because...
Speak to me of loved ones, favorite places and things, loves lost and gained, tears shed for joy and sorrow, of when I see the sparkle in your eye ...
and the blackness when the dream dies, of lovers, fools, adventurers and kings while I sip my wine and contemplate the Chi.
Yes, Joe was within his rights and has no obligation to give any sort of refund. Speedy Steve had the option of inspecting the entire roll and chose not to. Meanwhile, Joe was unaware of the contents of the roll, so didn't even knowingly or purposely take advantage of Steve.
A tougher and more interesting (sorry Andy) scenario would be: What if Joe knew that the geezer who sold the items to him, often had mislabeled rolls?
<<Then, Joe turns to Hap and demands that he return the 79-CC. “You didn’t pay for a 79-CC, you don’t get to keep it!” Hap the Sap reluctantly returns the coin. But would he have been within his rights to keep the coin and tell Joe to jump in a lake?>>
Hap would have been within his rights to keep the coin. After all, Joe had the option oif inspecting the roll thoroughly before selling it, but chose not to.
<<Does Louie somehow owe Sloppy Joe part of his windfall?>>
No, Louie does not owe Joe anything. Sloppy Joe (whose name should be changed to THE Sloppy Joe) again had the opportunity to inspect the roll thoroughly and declined. He quoted a price, which was accepted by Louie.
Yes, he should tell Joe to jump in a lake.
No, Louie owes Joe nothing.
yes
no
P.S. For Part 3, you may want to consider one question per thread and make a poll out of it. Easier to follow...
what it was believed to be at the time the terms were made. It is often in both
parties best interest to renegotiate but neither is required to.
A good rule of thumb for cherry pickers is to never tell the "pickee" what was found.
No one wants to know he traded something for much less than full value. I do try
to educate the seller on such things. The simple fact is that if a seller is selling hun-
dreds of '88-O dollars than it's a virtual certainty that he has sold the DDO. He knows
this as soon as he learns about it and simply doesn't need to know to whom it was
sold. Don't gloat. And there are always more varieties so there will always be more
cherrypicking to do. By educating the dealer you are creating more interest in the
varieties.
Yes. Dealer inspected the roll, and flat-out missed it. His loss.
No. Customer cherrypicked them fair and square.
2. He could keep the 79-CC if he wanted.
3. The cherrypicking spoils go to the cherrypicker.
That's my strict interpretation, but I would expect there to be some renegotiating in those situations, especially if the three collectors do business there regularly.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>The collectors don’t miss a beat. Speedy Steve moves in quickly and asks for a price on the roll marked 1882-CC. Joe doesn’t even look at the coins and quotes $3000. Steve takes a quick look and buys them, figuring it has to be a good deal. He pays Joe – cash, of course – and then starts reviewing the roll more closely. To his horror, he realizes that six coins are missing mintmarks. He asks Joe if he can have a break on the price and Joe laughs at him. “Hey, you looked at them before you bought them. Sorry, a deal’s a deal.” Of course Joe knows he can get away with this because he knows how much Steve loves buying coins from him. Still, was Sloppy Joe within his rights to stick Steve with the bad deal? Was he obligated to give Steve some sort of refund? >>
What does this mean? Did he actually open the roll? I based my decision on him purchasing based strictly on what the writing on the roll stated.
But would say, it may be a good idea to give Steve a break.
NOT an obligation, but good for business.
(Priest) BLASPHEMY he said it again, did you hear him?
Speedy Steve made his deal for the roll as it was presented, with no misrepresentation by Joe.
Hap bought an uninspected roll and the 79-CC is his. Lazy seller.
Louis is also entitled to his cherrypick. He spent the energy to identify it, and acted accordingly. The seller didn't.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I think I have been in this shop....
YES
NO
He knew that the dealer did not mark or verify the roll before he bought it, and he had the opertunity tio verify it first.
yes-
No- but he never should have pointed it out right away if he ever want to buy coins from there again
A witty saying proves nothing- Voltaire (1694 - 1778)
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor
does the truth become error because nobody will see it. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
2nd one I would say Hap should be able to keep the coin because Joe looked and reviewed all the coins before selling them.....
3rd issue being the VAM's, I am not sure, but if you are talking that kind of cash I would think Louie should give him something but he absolutely does not have to.....
My 1866 Philly Mint Set